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How often should I see the flop?

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How often should I see the flop? - Thu Aug 05, 2010, 12:58 AM
(#1)
CFGreene's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1
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I've been playing micro stakes sit n goes. How often should I be seeing the flop from the SB, BB and other positions?

In the last 5 that I played I saw the flop from the SB about 25% -40%, BB 40% - 50% and other positions around 30%. That feels like too much to me, but I've been doing pretty well, winning two and coming in second another time.

Any thoughts?
 
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Thu Aug 05, 2010, 04:41 AM
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gs.rockman's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 88
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Around 30% overall would be a general stance between excessive tight / excessive loose, but it depends largely on the table: loose, tight, etc, and your style of play (tight - mid - loose). One table you may find that you get to see the flop with nothing more than calling the BB, opening med strength hands to you, and the next table you may see that every hand involves a raise and reraise.

The best way to know if your playing too many hands or too few hands for your style of play is to take notes and review your hand histories. At the end of the game, review your hands (even the winning ones) and see how good you felt about how you did. Did you make a bunch of bad calls or bets and get lucky or did you beat yourself out of a lot of pots because you didn't atleast call a min bet preflop with a KQo. Look at the stats, did you call raises from a known tight, monster hand player with med or weak hands?

Along with the winning percentage of the hands you decide to enter, these are much more telling about your game than just the percentage of flops seen. The key to it is, after the game, even if you got knocked out before the money, if you're happy with how you played, and think you made the right calls and plays but just got beat out by a bad turn or river, then you're where you need to be.

Eventually, you'll learn to read the table and adjust your play as necessary.

Sounds like your doing well. Keep it up and good luck at the tables

Last edited by gs.rockman; Thu Aug 05, 2010 at 04:46 AM..
 
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Thu Aug 05, 2010, 05:52 AM
(#3)
IseeCookies's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,961
Main thing you want to do is keep the percentage of flops seen and Preflop raises within 3%.
This is ideal and players that are not in that range are easier to exploit.

30% is a bit high.
Early position should have less hands till you get to hijack.From Hijack it should increase.
 
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Thu Aug 05, 2010, 11:06 PM
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YanToy's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 360
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SNG strategy typically calls for you to play VERY tightly in the early stages, until there are only 5 or 6 players left. At the "tight is right" stage, your VPIP (voluntary put in pot) should RARELY, if ever, exceed 15%. It is not uncommon for me to find myself under 10% at this stage. I have even seen myself getting to the money bubble with 0% VPIP!

The reason for this is the fact that there will tend to be a couple people who WILL "mix it up". You will want to let those folks tangle, and it is highly likely 1 person will emerge with a decent chip up after a couple of tussles, and a couple others will wind up severely hurting their chances to money, or even busting out. Add in the fact that the blinds at the initial stages do NOT cost a large portion of your stack, and it is easy to see why folding a LOT of hands is the way to go.

Once you are down to around 5 or 6 people, the entire table will tend to start "feeling" the money bubble approaching. This will tend to slow down the bigger stacks (usually), as they start to "sit" on their chip leads (much as you began by sitting on your start stack). By this time you will likely have played VERY few pots (if any), and you will have either chipped up a little bit, or lost only a little bit. since the blinds at this point will generally be somewhere between the 50/100 and 100/200 levels, a stack of around 1300 to 1800 will find great benefit in adding a few blind pick ups.

This does NOT mean you go nutso crazy, and raise every pot. On what is likely to be a 3rd or 4th place stack, doing that will "burn" any tight image benefits you might have built, and is also likely to see a few of your early attempts CALLED by still active bigger stacks. This means if you are rampantly aggressive, you are likely to burn the schips you still have left. This is, however, the point where you may well be looking at increasing your VPIP up to around the 15 to 25% level. It should also be noted that you msut still maintain certain solid start hand standards, but the higher VPIP would open your range to include group 2 hands as playable for a raise from any position, would probably equate to CALLING raises with Gr 2 hands, or open raising yourself down to group 3, from MP. It would also mean trying to "leverage" your tight image from LP with a couple more middle suited connector type hands, but these require caution; you could well find yourself attempting semi-bluffs on draws, and you may not take down pots. Often though, QJs, JTs, T9s actually become pretty reasonable steal type hands.

The KEY point of the chip up stage is that you must be very careful aobut knowing when to STOP trying to accumulate chips. Remember, at this stage, your table has probably tightened up quite a bit, and that means THEY will not be as willing to stack off big parts of their chips lightly. I would strongly suggest you consider reverting to a tight (low low VPIP) strategy once you have managed to gain a "money" stack (one that is 3rd place or better). you have no "need" to be the chip leader with 4,5, or 6 left, and trying to get to be that thru plaiyng too many pots can easily see you busted before the money.

The thing I've noticed about some people, especially newer palyers, is that their perceptions of "Tight vs Loose" tend to be pretty skewed. I'll use the person who answered here as an example, with his suggestion the 30% VPIP is "about right"...

(note: The following as simplified hand ranges, and are just meant to be indicative of how truly WIDE a 30% VPIP range is.)

Consider...

a 30% VPIP means you will be palying almsot 3 hands per orbit, EVERY orbit. That is a heack of a lot of hands!

There are 169 discreet hands in hold 'em. If you will potentially play 30% of these, that means your ENTIRE hand range includes hands to roughly the middle of group 6 of Sklansky's hand rank charts.

Now...

Obviously, you will play fewer hands form EP than MP, and even more hands from LP than MP. THIS means in order to see the flop as many as 30% of the time, your "true" range would be larger than the top 51 or so hands (30% of 169 = about 51).

Let's assume that you are willing to play the top 20% of your range from EP, 40% from MP, and all 100% from LP. You will spend 1/3rd of the time in each position. To get info on your "true" hand range, you must factor this:

Enter EP = 20%
Enter MP = 40%
Enter LP = 100%

33.3% x 20% = 6.66% of your total hand range you will enter with from EP
33.3% x 40% = 13.32% of your total hand range you will enter with from MP
33.33% x 100% = 33.3% of the total start hand chart you will play form LP.

These numbers set your total hand range not at the top 51 hands, but rather at the to 56 to 57 hands. THIS means you are willing to enter a pot, no matter what the action is ahead of you, roughly from LP with alomst ANY hadn in group 6. Group 6 hands include such "stellar" holdings as 98o, Q8s, 97s, and K4s if your "target" VPIP is 30%!

Sure, there ARE times and situations where even total kludge hands like this might be playable, but to arrive at a total VPIP of 30% you MUST be calling raises at times with these total garbage hands. That is far too loose...

I consider myself to be a VERY Loose/aggressive player, yet even my VPIP rarely strays much above 20% when I am playing that style well. Even 20% is a VERY wide range, and forces me to rely heavily upon my ability to read the table, read board texture for possible draw/re-draw opportunities, spot good bluff chances, manage my chip loss to avoid being crippled, etc etc. A LOT of these skills are under-developed in newer players, and will lead very quickly to SNG losses if they attempt to "play like the pro's" they see on TV.

You see, there is a REASON why you see the pro's playing a much wider range of hands than is advocated by the lessons in PSO, and that is their faith in the strength of their post flop play abilities. It is a simple fact of poker "life" that the better developed your skills, the wider is the range of hands which can be considered playble by you.

If you are a newer player to poker, your goal should not be to complicate your game by trying to enter as many pots as you can, but should rather be to SIMPLIFY your decision processes by selecting to enter pots only with good, solid start hands. Simpler decisions lead to more "correct" decisions, and the more "correct" decisions you make in poker, the better chance you have to surive in a tourney or SNG to take full advantage of the mistakes your OPPONENTS are making.

...and minimizing your mistakes and taking advantage of your opponent's mistakes is where a lot of the profit you will see thru poker play will come from. The rest will come thru just plain "luck", both your good luck, and your opponents' bad luck.

So what I'd say is: The newer you are, and the less skill you have at poker, the tighter you should be playing. But no matter WHAT skill level you have, straying much above the 20 to 25% VPIP level will be a BIG mistake.
 
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Sat Aug 07, 2010, 11:53 AM
(#5)
nanonoko's Avatar
nanonoko
(nanonoko)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 154
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There's no correct answer to how often you should be doing something in poker. One thing to keep in mind is that you want to play as many pots in position which translates to playing tighter from the blinds since you'll be out of position if you choose to call raises from the blinds. Playing in position helps you make good decisions.
 
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Tue Aug 17, 2010, 08:47 PM
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Databyter's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 372
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One of the main considerations here is how expensive it is to see the flop.

Alot of folks at PSO say to play tight at the beginning, especially with S&G's.

I totally disagree. When blinds are 20 chips to see it's a cheap price to match up some speculative hole cards to a potentially chip earning board.

Remember when blinds are 100 and you have a KQ and flop to 4 6 A you just spent 100 on a hand you should fold on.
You were right to play it, but it doesn't always play out well on the flop.

7 2 is arguably the worst hole cards in poker, but you could see the flop for that hand 5 times for the same price, and chances are you'll get a mid or high pair on one of those times with potentially a good board to call or raise on. (no I'm not recommending playing 7 2, It's just a learning example)

See the point? More flops is more chances. Your odds all things being equal are 9 :1 from the get go, a decent set of hole cards might double that to 9:2 or if a monster perhaps 9:3. (before the flop and odds assume all hands call). Statisticly if you see more flops even with less valuable hole cards, you will increase your chances for a hand you can lever into profit.

Don't blindly follow the law of what to play and what to fold on pre-flop. Play tight and aggresive, but slightly less tight when the price to see the flop is 20 chips. As the blinds get real then switch to your premium game as taught by PSO. Hopefully with some extra profit from your peeking the flops.

Know what the price is. And when in the cheap seats, sit through the double feature.

Last edited by Databyter; Tue Aug 17, 2010 at 08:59 PM..
 
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Tue Aug 17, 2010, 09:31 PM
(#7)
IseeCookies's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,961
You dismiss a style cause you play different.
Some people think your way and others prefer to nit up early.Nothing wrong with either style.

For a new player I think nit is the best way to go because chips are more important.
 
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Tue Aug 17, 2010, 11:59 PM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Databyter View Post
One of the main considerations here is how expensive it is to see the flop.

Alot of folks at PSO say to play tight at the beginning, especially with S&G's.

I totally disagree. When blinds are 20 chips to see it's a cheap price to match up some speculative hole cards to a potentially chip earning board.

Remember when blinds are 100 and you have a KQ and flop to 4 6 A you just spent 100 on a hand you should fold on.
You were right to play it, but it doesn't always play out well on the flop.

7 2 is arguably the worst hole cards in poker, but you could see the flop for that hand 5 times for the same price, and chances are you'll get a mid or high pair on one of those times with potentially a good board to call or raise on. (no I'm not recommending playing 7 2, It's just a learning example)

See the point? More flops is more chances. Your odds all things being equal are 9 :1 from the get go, a decent set of hole cards might double that to 9:2 or if a monster perhaps 9:3. (before the flop and odds assume all hands call). Statisticly if you see more flops even with less valuable hole cards, you will increase your chances for a hand you can lever into profit.

Don't blindly follow the law of what to play and what to fold on pre-flop. Play tight and aggresive, but slightly less tight when the price to see the flop is 20 chips. As the blinds get real then switch to your premium game as taught by PSO. Hopefully with some extra profit from your peeking the flops.

Know what the price is. And when in the cheap seats, sit through the double feature.
there ARE plusses to the "small ball/see a lotta flops" Style you are advocating here, and I didn;t really mean for my initial post (under the Yantoy Nick) to be seen as the "end all/be all" of SNG strategy. You CAN, potentially, get chip ups thru a looser style...

With that said though, the TYPICAL style you will see in SNG's IS the "nitted up" style. This style presents both benefits to the LAG approach, but also presents DANGERS to the LAG, especially in the early stages.

The LAG style you are advocating relies heavily upon seeing a lot of flops in hopes of picking up draws or small pair hands. This requires a LOT of aggression to effectly leverage into chip ups. Using aggression with marginal holdings can lead as often to disaster in shorter stack events (like SNGs), as it can lead to big chip ups.

The plus of seeing flops with position when holding hands like 65h is that when you face a nit, you may well "hit" when he "misses", and be able to pick up some wins. another plus is that when your speculative hands DO make big hands (straights/flushes/sets with small pp), you are likely to be palying nits who have enough value in THEIR hands to pay you off; THIS can lead to big chip ups.

The down side of this style though, especially EARLY, is that it is very EASY for the nit to get away from hands like AK/AQ "misses", thus denying you big chip ups from your loose style. When they DO hold a pp, it is likely to be an over pair to the board whereas flops where you are AHED of an over pair will be more likely to be vulnerable "bottom 2" type hands. Bottom 2 pr can be very vulnerable to counterfeitting, and this could cause you to LOSE large chip amounts.

so the end result of a LAG style early in SNGs could be small, but frequent, wins followed by a BIG "loss". this would be the "yo-yo" effect. while sometimes this will lead to "deep" finishes in SNGs (1st/2nd), it can also lead to you FAILING to money at all.
 
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Wed Aug 18, 2010, 06:08 AM
(#9)
Databyter's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 372
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I'm just talking about the first two blind cycles, so the 10 - 20 minutes of an hours long war. I just wanted to re-clarify. I agree tight and aggressive is a way to win for 90 percent of a tourney.

Also I am not proposing that people play loose, just a wee bit less tight.

Be fluid in your game play. The game IS different in the beginning,middle, and end, and this should be taken into consideration with all aspects of your game except figuring odds which is a constant.

I still play pretty tight by most standards, just not quite as tight very early. I still won't hit most hands.

Also I don't mean to play the hands, only to see the flops if no one else raises and then call it from their and only with above average hole cards as opposed to fairly good ones.

I agree with what you said, and I realize most folks would do well to follow guidelines closely and play as tight as possible because it's a good lesson in discipline which is what most people trying to improve their game lack.

But as you gain confidence and wisdom, there is something to be said for using the PSO guidlines as tools but in a more fluid way that is customized to style and environment.

It is not the Bible of Poker, rather it is a template that works very well. It's important to understand why it works and then make it your own.

I've tried it both ways and have had mixed results so far. either way I usually do alright because even my looser is still tight.

Last edited by Databyter; Wed Aug 18, 2010 at 06:21 AM..
 



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