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Skill League Team effort?

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Skill League Team effort? - Thu Apr 12, 2012, 08:52 PM
(#1)
LeadFoot46's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 9
I am trying to figure out how the league leaders ( today it is wiessrut ) can play 6 Open Skill tourneys a day, each and every day for the month, they must doing it with a team of at least 2 maybe 3. How can a legit player compete for the big payouts when they are doing twice the tourneys of the average player. PSO should / must limit the number of times a player can enter each day to make it fair for the honest players that have to eat, sleep and work for a living.
 
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Thu Apr 12, 2012, 09:17 PM
(#2)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Hi Leadfoot,

You are raising an issue that has been raised many times before and one that unfortunately seems unlikely to be addressed.

I know that there are those that legitimately play six times every day for the Open League and that they certainly have a constitution,work ethic and dedication that renders me speechless. I believe I played four on the first day of the month and I was so knackered that I basically gave up after that. How people can play six every day, have a normal balanced life and not end up in hospital or the insane asylum is beyond me. Kudos to them!

However, and it is a big however, I am of the opinion, that there is a huge difference in endurance and skill and the Open Skill League should be called the Open Endurance League because poker skill has very little to do with winning the big payouts.

I did see one member make a post complaining that people who did not earn 20VPP were able to compete in the Open League every month and take away money places from those with 20VPP

The fact is that whatever rules are set up, there will always be those that are able to take advantage of them for their own benefit, whether it be playing every League game, not participating in the Premier league, not achieving 20VPP so that they can play the Open every month etc. etc. etc. That is just the way life is, harsh but true.

Personally, I would like to see a limit in the number of games allowed to be played, but whether this is practicable, or whether it would improve the League, or whether it would be in the best interests of Pokerstars God only knows. It is unlikely to happen so all I can suggest is to just do your best with the system as it stands.

Cheers,

TC
 
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Tag team? - Thu Apr 12, 2012, 10:02 PM
(#3)
LeadFoot46's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 9
Hi TC
I know it is impossible to please everyone , all the time , but lets be serious, no one person can possibly play 6 skill league tourneys every day for a month let alone a week. If the player avoids the all-in morons for the first hour he is in a good points position and if they survive for 2 -3 hours they will make a good climb in the standings. To get to the final table takes 5-6 hours I'm told, never been there. If a player does well he can be playing continuosly for 24 hours a day. I managed to improve from about 3000 to 250 in 2 days playing 3 or 4 a day, I could be in the big cash if I kept at it but will never get to the top 10 where the big money is because I have to sleep unlike those leaders that must be doing a tag team effort. That's why it is important for the PSO gurus to put a limit on the number of times a player can enter every day.
 
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Thu Apr 12, 2012, 11:07 PM
(#4)
mcgameboy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 119
Hi Leadfoot,

As a PSO Open Leaguer myself, I too voiced these concerns sometime last year (around August i think) regarding those players who play 6 games per day, as I too think it is darn near impossible (I say darn near as opposed to ACTUALLY because it IS doable) to keep up that level of "dedication" for a full calendar month.

Yes I agree that it "appears" that there are "team playing antics" afoot. And that makes me as annoyed as you are about it Leadfoot. But again, cast-iron proof MUST be required before any kind of complaint could be upheld. And PokerStars could simply say (without even bothering to actually look into such a complaint) "rest assured the integrity of the event was not compromised". Which is precisely what they DID say when I sent an e-mail to them voicing my own concerns. What response can I give to that? They could be telling the truth and I have no way of knowing that they are not. So I've got to accept it...reluctantly or otherwise.

I do have to agree with pretty much everything that topthecat said though. Pokerstars will NEVER address this issue. There ARE players who CAN play 6 tournies per day LEGITIMATELY. They do have constitutions, endurance and work ethics that leave me not just speechless but utterly bewildered. And to be honest, feeling a bit sorry for them. If I was to go throught this for a full calendar month only to get a mere $50 (some even get as ittle as $10) at the end of it, I'd feel quite deflated to be honest. To make it worthwhile, you really MUST get the big money. When I really think about it, what if you did "subject" yourself to this every other month for an entire year? Even IF you won the league in each of the six months your total winnings would be $9,000. It's hardly life-changing money is it? Life-enhancing maybe, but not life-changing. And at what cost? Having no life for half the year? Sorry but I think I'll pass.

Talking of the big money....I would suggest that you have a quick look at the leaderboards in previous months. You will find that those who play in excess of 100 (and as many as 140 games per month) tend to fail to win the league. One player (a Russian) last month played a truly ridiculous 158 games in the month. And wn...$90. Whoopy diddly doo. Barely enough to cover a night out in Moscow. Hope it was worth it for him/her/they. Yet another player got 3rd and $750 for playing a much more managable (and likely honest and above board) 78 games. Quality beat quantity.

The likes of weissrut may think they can "buy" the league with high attendance. It doesn't work like that though. When he hits 2700, he is going to have to get lucky...and often. One bad beat and he loses 20, 30, even 40 points....and then he has to get a top 200 finish to get it all back. Try doing that when you are card dead/running bad/never seeing a free flop from your blinds/never winning when you are anted or blinded allin.

My advice is to concentrate on what YOU can do. Don't pay too much attention to the leaderboard. If you let the leaderboard kid you into thinking that you have to take several risks in order to make up lost ground, you could end up worse off and take one risk too many. The league isn't won and lost in the first two weeks Leadfoot. It's won in the final week. I myself took a 35 point hit in my last game after getting AA busted on Hand 1. But I'm not giving up. I'm also not playing 6 games per day in the hope of making up lost ground. I'm sticking to 4 per day maximum.

So Leadfoot, let the likes of weissrut do what they are doing. You cannot control that. You can only control what you do. Focus on that. And hopefully if you're playing good and disciplined, the run good will enable you to catch up and challenge for the big money
 
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Thu Apr 12, 2012, 11:32 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,917
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Hi all!

I know from experience that players can play them. With the old league (when the US players could participate), there were 4 spread out games and I regularly played all 4, but then again, there were days that I couldn't play any.

The thing with playing that many though, is that as a player's score goes up, it is MUCH harder to accumulate points. For example, using my history, once I got to a top score, for every one early exit that I got, it took up to 4ITM finishes.. just to get back to even for the combination of games.

If players want to try to play more, then there is no problem with that. It will help them early in the month, but will hurt them later in the month, once their score goes up. The scoring system takes that into account.

There have been players in the past with good league rankings that have played all the games and there also have been players that have hit some of the upper payout levels playing an average of ONE game per day. It CAN be done with less games.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Team PokerSchoolOnline - John - Super Moderator, Hand Analyzer


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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:06 AM
(#6)
LeadFoot46's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 9
Hey JWK24;
I'm sorry but I can't agree with everything you stated. You say someone could play 6 matches per day every day. Maybe for a day or 2 but after that they would be a basket case, I've worked night shifts and gone without a good sleep for days at a time, after a week it takes a week to get back to normal. There is NO WAY these guys are playing 6 a day, every day for weeks at a time by themselves. To maintain a positive in the points he would have to last at least 2 hours in each match and with them starting every 4 hours when does a guy sleep and then wake up in time for the 3-5 minute registration period before it fills. I think someone has their head in the sand if they think these people are not cheating. If PSO won't address this by limiting the daily entries to 3 or 4 each then I think it's time to fire up the PS3 and get into Gran Turismo again.
 
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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:43 AM
(#7)
Pentire's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgameboy View Post
Even IF you won the league in each of the six months your total winnings would be $9,000. It's hardly life-changing money is it? Life-enhancing maybe, but not life-changing. And at what cost? Having no life for half the year? Sorry but I think I'll pass.
Not life enhancing really. Think about how much money you would make doing the crappiest of low paid (unskilled, timegrinding takes none whatsoever) jobs (certainly in Western Europe).

About £230 a week (for actually winning the month) is really poor for at least a 100 hour week.

Some of us do play a lot of Prem league games. Very different as one bad play means a big negative score. Timegrinding from the start doesn't work. Also, you get to know a lot of the players and even without chat, it may be obvious if two different people were playing the same account.

My advice to anyone who doesn't like the Open League is the same as always:

Qualify for the Premier League!
 
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re post - Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:26 AM
(#8)
milehigh0874's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 254
okay so im unemployed at the moment and could easily manage to play the six tournies a day,that doesnt make me a dishonest player ,but i dont know how id go every day for the month,but i cant say the player is a cheater based on that,i reckon some people use bots across the site but how can you prove it,i know pokerstars police it but it would still be possible thats why its policed.


"If players want to try to play more, then there is no problem with that. It will help them early in the month, but will hurt them later in the month, once their score goes up. The scoring system takes that into account."

i dont understand this statement JWK24 please elaborate if you can.


"I did see one member make a post complaining that people who did not earn 20VPP were able to compete in the Open League every month and take away money places from those with 20VPP" topthecat


i dont really understand this either as you would think the players finishing with big prizes are regular players in either cash games,stts or mtts so avoiding the 20vpp to stay in open league just isnt viable and why wouldnt you want to play premier league with smaller field and bigger prizes.
 
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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:38 AM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,917
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Hi milehigh!

If a player gets say a 100th place finish when their league score is say 1600, they will get more points than a player with the exact same 100th place if their score is 1800, which is less than a 100th for someone that has 2000 points.
Equal finishes will get less and less points, the higher your score is.
------------------------------
"i dont really understand this either as you would think the players finishing with big prizes are regular players in either cash games,stts or mtts so avoiding the 20vpp to stay in open league just isnt viable and why wouldnt you want to play premier league with smaller field and bigger prizes."

You are correct there. The larger prizes are in the premier league, or with having 20VPP in the open. One finish with 20vpp in the open would take 10 months of <20vpp finishes at the same level. To intentionally not get the 20vpp's makes ZERO sense.

Hope this helps.

John (JWK24)


Team PokerSchoolOnline - John - Super Moderator, Hand Analyzer


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re post - Fri Apr 13, 2012, 07:03 AM
(#10)
milehigh0874's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 254
thnx jwk also can anyone tell me how it is possible to know how many league games an individual has played,if i check my own placing on the leaderboard my results for each game played will display on the bottom of the page,but if i search another player this information doesnt show does it?
 
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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 07:17 AM
(#11)
mcgameboy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 119
Hover over the tick that is beside the rating score. Note that if there isn't a tick it usually means that that player has not played 5 games yet (the minimum amount of games required to be played to be eligible for a prize). But you can still hover over where the tick would be if that player had already played 5 games.

And results information for all players can be accessed, not just yours. The only time that it can't be accessed is around 0.00am on the 1st day of the new month, usually when there are still a couple of games left to play in the month. You CAN see the total scores and the leaderboard, you simply can't see a detailed breakdown of each player's score. Which is a bit of a bummer as that is the most crucial time as far as knowing where you are in relation to your fellow players. But it's something that can't be fixed.
 
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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 10:18 AM
(#12)
Pentire's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by milehigh0874 View Post

i dont really understand this either as you would think the players finishing with big prizes are regular players in either cash games,stts or mtts so avoiding the 20vpp to stay in open league just isnt viable and why wouldnt you want to play premier league with smaller field and bigger prizes.
Because the Premier League is a skill league. The high finishers in the Open League are almost entirely good at running the clock down and shoving KK and AA. Sometimes, OL players who come up out of their depth into the PL sit and run the clock. It is very funny (and actually hurts them).
 
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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:03 AM
(#13)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi all!

I know from experience that players can play them. With the old league (when the US players could participate), there were 4 spread out games and I regularly played all 4, but then again, there were days that I couldn't play any.

The thing with playing that many though, is that as a player's score goes up, it is MUCH harder to accumulate points. For example, using my history, once I got to a top score, for every one early exit that I got, it took up to 4ITM finishes.. just to get back to even for the combination of games.

If players want to try to play more, then there is no problem with that. It will help them early in the month, but will hurt them later in the month, once their score goes up. The scoring system takes that into account.

There have been players in the past with good league rankings that have played all the games and there also have been players that have hit some of the upper payout levels playing an average of ONE game per day. It CAN be done with less games.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)
With all due respect JWK, what you are saying is anecdotal and references the old leagues where a few achieved a top 50 or top 10 finish with 30 or less games. I did so myself. However I have not seen anyone achieve a top 20 finish (where the big money starts) with 30 or less games since the new system was introduced.

The fact is that players who play more volume, whether as individuals or a team, have a much higher chance of hitting the big payouts than someone playing 30 games. The scoring system does "punish" lower finishes the more points you have, but it in no way compensates or offsets massive volume. For example the league leader finished 1387th the other night and was punished by receiving a huge -4 points when he already had 2470. It will certainly not take him four games to regain 4 points and anyone can easily get to the top 1500 by just burning and folding every hand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by milehigh0874 View Post

"I did see one member make a post complaining that people who did not earn 20VPP were able to compete in the Open League every month and take away money places from those with 20VPP" topthecat


i dont really understand this either as you would think the players finishing with big prizes are regular players in either cash games,stts or mtts so avoiding the 20vpp to stay in open league just isnt viable and why wouldnt you want to play premier league with smaller field and bigger prizes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi milehigh!

If a player gets say a 100th place finish when their league score is say 1600, they will get more points than a player with the exact same 100th place if their score is 1800, which is less than a 100th for someone that has 2000 points.
Equal finishes will get less and less points, the higher your score is.
------------------------------
"i dont really understand this either as you would think the players finishing with big prizes are regular players in either cash games,stts or mtts so avoiding the 20vpp to stay in open league just isnt viable and why wouldnt you want to play premier league with smaller field and bigger prizes."

You are correct there. The larger prizes are in the premier league, or with having 20VPP in the open. One finish with 20vpp in the open would take 10 months of <20vpp finishes at the same level. To intentionally not get the 20vpp's makes ZERO sense.

Hope this helps.

John (JWK24)
I will address your point mile high and for JWK to say it makes ZERO sense is rather disingenuous because it happens whether it makes sense or not.

The reason some will not want to achieve 20VPP is because they do not want to play in the Premier and want to play the Open every month. They believe it is more profitable for them to play in the Open with less than 20VPP even though the cash reward may seem miniscule.

In a similar way, many players will only play the Open league every two months and not participate in the Premier at all because they feel the rewards in the Premier are outweighed by the time investment and the style of poker required. You can easily achieve a high points aggregate in the Open by playing only two hours, even at the highest points level playing two hours should ensure a positive points return. However, in the Premier, you need to play for five or six hours per tourney to achieve a high points score. Some see this as -EV, others who participate regularly in the Premier and have the game for it see it as +EV.

Personally, I fall into none of these camps. I started to play the open league this month after a long sabbatical, I do not even know if i will continue to play at all. I do not have the time for volume, if I qualified for the premier, I would probably not make 150VPP, and therefore would not qualify for the higher prizes. The fact is I am a recreational player and as long as I am tottering along and not winning a great deal or losing a great deal either, I am happy enough in my own little comfort zone.

What most fail to recognise is that the leagues are a marketing tool for Pokerstars, they are designed to get more people to play more poker, which is obviously the goal of Pokerstars as a company. I am sure they have a bean counter somewhere in the bowels of the company calculating whether the leagues is a money generator for them, apparently it is or they would not continue to run it, they are in this to make a profit after all!

The upside of this for players is that they can take advantage of this to grow a bankroll or for some maybe improve their financial lot. A couple of $100 is a month's wage for some countries and off course people will try and take advantage of that; it would not surprise me at all if some were playing as a team as Leadfoot implies.

The only thing that any of us can do if we wish to participate is play within the rules to our best benefit. As I said before the rules are unlikely to change and as players are not investing their own money to participate, it seems unlikely to be policed with the same vigour as real money games. you just have to live with the way it is.

Cheers,

TC
 
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Mon Apr 16, 2012, 02:33 AM
(#14)
PLaws62's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi all!

I know from experience that players can play them. With the old league (when the US players could participate), there were 4 spread out games and I regularly played all 4, but then again, there were days that I couldn't play any.

The thing with playing that many though, is that as a player's score goes up, it is MUCH harder to accumulate points. For example, using my history, once I got to a top score, for every one early exit that I got, it took up to 4ITM finishes.. just to get back to even for the combination of games.

If players want to try to play more, then there is no problem with that. It will help them early in the month, but will hurt them later in the month, once their score goes up. The scoring system takes that into account.

There have been players in the past with good league rankings that have played all the games and there also have been players that have hit some of the upper payout levels playing an average of ONE game per day. It CAN be done with less games.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)
sorry jwk i know your a fair mod but one game a day in the new structure you cannot do well ,can go up to prem but cannot compete for top spots,and the old pso i could play three if i got straight home from work ,1730 ,being the first
now one a day no chance and no one has listened since day one of new league
 
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Mon Apr 16, 2012, 08:28 PM
(#15)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,917
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It may be 2/day with the new system, compared with the old one where you could hit $50 in 1/day and I'm basing the prizes off of 150vpp for these numbers.

Here's where my numbers are coming from, but I'm taking them from the month ends over the last three months.

To get to $50, a player will need to get about 1750 pts (+250).

To get to $130, a player will need to get about 1880 pts (+380). Took the player that won it in Jan 37 games to get there, 49 in Feb, 38 in Mar.

To win takes about 2100 pts (+600).

With the final table bonuses, if a player can get one a month, then I'd want to have an average of about +10 pts per game that I played (should be easier with this scoring system compared to the old one, as the negatives are not as large and 10pts/game my target when I could play).

Obviously, if you hit a variance run, it's going to take more games.

With 10 pts/game, then to get to $50, it would take about 25 games to get to.
For $130, it would take about 38 games.
To win would take 60 games.

Even if you add in say an extra 15 games to each to account for having a few bad beats.

For $50, it's 40 games (1.3/day)
For $130, it's 55 games (under 2/day)
To win, it's 75 games (2.5/day)

John (JWK24)


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Tue Apr 17, 2012, 01:47 AM
(#16)
PLaws62's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 330
jw i ask how do you play 1.3 games a day ,to be competetive us working guys can only play one during the week ,so for the numbers to work look at my month so far this month ,im at 1800 and the top is 2600,and if you do check you will see on weekends i have more than one a day but have missed a couple ,they fill up fast and i have missed the less than 2 minuets it takes for the 10,000 to regester

the old league i was playing threegames a day during the week ,posting hands and getting feed back on my play and thanks to moxie and others like yourself i have improved my play and was enjoying the pokerstars exprience, now the league is long you fold for an hour ,if you get a monster hand you look at the points and yes your out with a bad taste in your mouth ,and i dont enjoy the open but can get back to prem league just by running the clock ,but it is not fun ,im not posting hands ,and im not seeing the old faces giving advice ,i try to be positive but i am loosing faith

Pete Lawson
 
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Tue Apr 17, 2012, 02:22 AM
(#17)
Pentire's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 108
Pete,

You certainly make a good point that the old league set-up had more of a "community feel"

However,

You are a full-time working stiff (like me). I do wonder how many of us there are here. You had almost 0% chance of winning the old league as you were ONLY playing 3 per day. The winners were timegrinding almost every tourney. I was very happy when the change happened, I realised (correctly) that the playing field had levelled, there is no advantage to playing massive volume (almost every month there is someone who wishes they had stopped after 30 tourneys!). Note that almost all the old successful PSO players have gone. That is because they had no actual poker skills and got found out.
 
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Tue Apr 17, 2012, 02:43 AM
(#18)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentire View Post
Note that almost all the old successful PSO players have gone.
Remember, a high number of us live in the US... so we can't play in them.

John (JWK24)


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Tue Apr 17, 2012, 03:00 AM
(#19)
effsea's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentire View Post
Pete,

You certainly make a good point that the old league set-up had more of a "community feel"

However,

You are a full-time working stiff (like me). I do wonder how many of us there are here. You had almost 0% chance of winning the old league as you were ONLY playing 3 per day. The winners were timegrinding almost every tourney. I was very happy when the change happened, I realised (correctly) that the playing field had levelled, there is no advantage to playing massive volume (almost every month there is someone who wishes they had stopped after 30 tourneys!). Note that almost all the old successful PSO players have gone. That is because they had no actual poker skills and got found out.



What? ......hiccup,

that really has to be the ........nevermind

eff me
 
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Tue Apr 17, 2012, 03:25 AM
(#20)
Pentire's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 108
JWK,

Good point. I was considering those who tried the Prem league with far worse results than in the old PSO-run-the-clock-and-blind-to-death league.

You do have my sympathies. Fingers crossed that you all get back soon.

Effsea,

I may have been a bit blunt there, but I reckon that constant timegrinding is terrible for your game. A lot of players did not adapt.