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playing with morons...

Old
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playing with morons... - Fri Jan 03, 2003, 11:28 PM
(#1)
Deleted user
friday 10 pm - 200 buy in - no limit holdem

110 players started - 20 minutes gonne

103 players - 10.600 average chips

side note on my play on this table
had play 3 hands
- AT button . raise 50 and slipt pot with QF for is AT on bb
- pp on cutoff - no raise preflop - lost to thief ace
- AT late pos - no raise preflop - lost to the bb


Starting hand #12328873

Thief 21 starts with $9,575
QuartzForce starts with $10,863
SteelyDan starts with $10,650
waterman starts with $10,025
thehazyone starts with $9,925
CHUCK_UP starts with $9,925
TheMoron starts with $8,200
ESP starts with $9,850
muck it starts with $11,300
"spades" starts with $9,687
"spades" has the dealer button

>>>DEALING HOLE CARDS<<<

"spades" dealt down Ks Kc
Thief 21 posts the small blind $50
QuartzForce posts the big blind $100
SteelyDan folds
waterman calls $100
thehazyone folds
CHUCK_UP folds

TheMoron raises $100 to $200
ESP folds
muck it calls $200

"spades" raises $850 to $1,050
Thief 21 folds
QuartzForce folds
waterman folds

TheMoron raises $850 to $1,900
muck it folds

"spades" raises $7,787 to $9,687 and is all-in
TheMoron calls $6,300 and is all-in

"spades" shows cards Kc Ks

TheMoron shows cards 4h 4s

>>>DEALING FLOP<<< [ 2c 7h 4d ]
>>>DEALING TURN<<< [ Tc ]
>>>DEALING RIVER<<< [ Ad ]
"spades" wins $1,487
TheMoron wins $16,850
TheMoron won with three of a kind, fours
muck it: ouch
Starting hand #12328936


spades
 
Old
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Fri Jan 03, 2003, 11:56 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
unless players are playing on the tables under fake names there is all the reasons to reveal names

this is a school so you better learn with your msitakes and learn about the players you play with

dont even see whats your point on that....10 players where on that table..there is no secret or any reason to cover the real names
 
Old
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Sat Jan 04, 2003, 12:37 AM
(#3)
Deleted user


Spxdes,

You got what most any poker player wants. You got all your money in as odds on favorite.

Being the odds on favorite does not guarantee that you win the hand.

He made the big mistake and got lucky. I'll take the odds on favorite everytime, but I reallize I will loose a certain per centage of the hands.

The only alternative is to only call the others second raise and wait for the flop. With 2,4,7 flop it does not appear you could see any problem on the trash flop. You bet and get raised would you have folded? Or if the other player leads into you and you raise, what you gonna do if re-raised, fold?

You played the hand as best as it could be played under these circumstances. It just wasn't your turn to win this one. You played a big pot on deep money. That's poker.

It always stings when someone hits a bingo, but didn't you want him to call with the worse hand? How else are you gonna win if everyone folds everytime you bet. You'll pick-up some blinds,but later in the tournament you'll be on shallow money and almost defenseless (looking for a hand to survive)
 
Old
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Sat Jan 04, 2003, 12:39 AM
(#4)
Deleted user
Spades,
Are we to assume, by your mention of the previous hands you played, that AT is a strong holding? And are we to also assume that you HAD to have a big overpair here for you to make the play you did? TheMoron got a good flop on his pp and you lost.....next hand please?

8O


'Goddess
 
Old
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Sat Jan 04, 2003, 12:49 AM
(#5)
Deleted user
no pg

you supose to assume by what ive said (in the begining as a side note) that i was not raising or playing agressive, but playing carefully and passive..if you see what i mean

never told i had strong holdings..pls dont say things i didnt even mention

if you read carefully what ive said you will understand

now you dont tell me you got AT on the button and you dont raise it, after you got 1 or 2 limpers on the hand with bb at 50 bucks ???

i am saying i was not playing agressively and by my raise and reraise i was telling i had a big hand...did that help..no


well busch..you are absolutely right..but after been bad beat on a tournament that ive decide to reach final table, and get out in the last positions..and playing the hand the way it should be played...i can be very happy

spades
 
Old
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Sat Jan 04, 2003, 01:14 AM
(#6)
Deleted user
Spades,

Quote:
Not only do you need to work on your bingo game...

thehazyone Posted: 03 Jan 2003 22:34 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no reason to post names. Please remove them.

Hazy

You also need to work on your humor threshold.
 
Old
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Sat Jan 04, 2003, 01:32 AM
(#7)
Deleted user
Deleted.
 
Old
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Sat Jan 04, 2003, 05:54 AM
(#8)
Deleted user
At the 25-50 level I almost always muck AT in the BB after several limpers. I MAY, and it is a big MAY, limp in with AT suited on the button after several limpers early in a tournament in hopes of flopping a miracle nut hand like KQJ or a flush and trap a player who bets big with a big hand that is not the nuts. I can't see the value of raising to pick up the dead money from the limpers, because (i) it';s not that much money (does 175 really matter when you have 10K?); (ii) you likely do not raise enough to blow them off their hands; and (iii) since they like to limp, they are likely to call you even if you move in.

Bottom line: I muck this piece of trash 99% of the time early in a tournament.
 
Old
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Sat Jan 04, 2003, 12:52 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by spades
now you dont tell me you got AT on the button and you dont raise it, after you got 1 or 2 limpers on the hand with bb at 50 bucks ???
I believe Apryll was addressing this when he said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apryll
Bottom line: I muck this piece of trash 99% of the time early in a tournament.
My answer is different, but I'm a loose goose and not as good as Apryll.

First off, in my mind, the stage of tournament would not have any bearing on the matter. It would be determined by the depth of money. So, for me, with these blinds and depth of money. On the button with ATo, and a couple of limpers, I too would not raise in general, (though I may if I could pick up pot on flop or turn). Otherwise, I would usually limp on that depth of money, rather than fold as Apryll would. But if I flop something, I am cautious depending on the action. I certainly wouldn't put a lot of money in on top pair. With just top pair, I would bet if checked to me. If someone called, and we are now headsup, if there was a drawing hand out I would probably bet the turn if the draw misses. If we were still multiway taking the turn, I probably check it, but may not. I would probably fold if bet to me multiway on turn.

If it was bet to me on flop, I would not raise. I would either call or fold with just top pair on that depth of money, depending on overall situation.

Why do you think think ATo should be folded Apryll. Do you think I am making a mistake when I limp with ATo here? I think I agree that it is probably best to fold on certain depths of money, such as if it was shallower than the above example, (i.e. where, should we hit the flop, we would have to be committing whole stack if we played it. I wonder what depth of money this would be?). I also think it is best to either steal-raise or fold on even shallower money where the pot is worth stealing. But on real deep money, I don't mind limping. Is that a mistake?

Though I must admit, I don't think real deep money situations come up much in tournaments.
 
Old
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Sat Jan 04, 2003, 09:39 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
When I say "early in a tournament" what I mean is when stack size in relation to blinds is pretty deep.

I routinely limp with AK in the first 2 rounds of tournaments, looking to flop an ace and cripple those players who value AT AJ or A9 in late position. Unless you flop AT or a straight or a flush, do you ike your hand. MAybe you like a ten hi flop and hope to trap the fish that like JT?

I belive in playing more hands when the money is deep, but AT is not one of them.
 
Old
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Sun Jan 05, 2003, 03:20 AM
(#11)
Deleted user
Spades,
Yes, I am going to tell you that I do not raise with AT on the button with one, two, or any number of limpers in front of me. Nor will I raise with AJ in this situation and probably not AQ. I consider all of these hands weak holding early in tournaments when the money is deep, and very likely to become trap hands. The only people you can most often expect to call a raise, will have you beaten, with a pocket pair or AK, so why charge in with something you may have to eat later? For my money, I see far too much value being put on AT, AJ, and AQ by PSO players in tournaments. Unless it's late in the game, the money is shallow and you can be very aggressive, in my opinoin, these hands, for the most part, just plain suck!!

8O
'Goddess
 
Old
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Sun Jan 05, 2003, 07:24 AM
(#12)
Deleted user
is this the same PG that called a pot raise and a pot reraise with A9s then called all in on a 9 high flop to take down a monster when they rivered a 9?
 
Old
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Sun Jan 05, 2003, 08:02 AM
(#13)
Deleted user
Iron,
Probably is, but since I don't remembe, like you seem to, every hand I've ever played, there is most likely some details that you left out. If I did indeed call those raises, you can be assured there were reasons, either, my stack size, the action that made the call viable, or possibly the player making the raise. Since you have such great recall of every hand I've ever played, perhaps you can supply the left out details ?

8O
'Goddess
 
Old
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Sun Jan 05, 2003, 08:38 AM
(#14)
Deleted user
ok lets see blinds 75/150 all players involed 9-11k stacks

UTG raises pot (loosish player but not manaic)
2 UTG you calls

MP ironside raises pot
all fold including UTG
PG calls
flop 3c6h9s
you check i raise all in
you call with A9d
i throw my QQ into muck when 9 hits river.

one of those poker hand when you love the play but hate the result its poker.
 
Old
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Sun Jan 05, 2003, 08:42 AM
(#15)
Deleted user
ps it was last day of month about 5 months ago
it was raining outside i was wearing red t-shirt

and after the call on flop you had 225$ left enough to see a max of 3 hands.
 
Old
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Sun Jan 05, 2003, 12:10 PM
(#16)
Deleted user
lol iron...i did enjoy the last details.. i think now i remember that hand

pg..maybe im wrong but i dont have you for such a tight player..as least as i remember..(maybe you have changed)

i know im not as tight as that

ive seen great players of pso (1st page rankers) saying this and that hand playing much diferently..someone i respect trmendosly that criticizes playing KJ and just raises all in with a KJo on the bb for a J high flop and went all in to bust for a AJ caller...we all do this and that some of the times

stil got much to learn here..and maye you are right about it, but each hand is diferent and the same holding can be played in 100 diferent ways, and all of them played well or wrong

if i lay down AQ,AJ, AT in late pos or on button and i stick to some hands, starting with AK then i dont believe i can make final table in 90 %of the time....goshh ..im arriving final tables already short stack enough to keep laying down more hands...maybe im wrong...maybe the trick is to lay down even more nad play more agressive the few hands left

spades 8)
 
Old
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Sun Jan 05, 2003, 02:14 PM
(#17)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by apryllshowers
When I say "early in a tournament" what I mean is when stack size in relation to blinds is pretty deep.
I know Apryll, but I thought other people may misunderstand. I mean, there are some tournaments where the money is very shallow early on, so i was just trying to clear up any confusion, that some people may have had, that it was stack sizes rather than stage of tournament.

Quote:
I routinely limp with AK in the first 2 rounds of tournaments, looking to flop an ace and cripple those players who value AT AJ or A9 in late position. Unless you flop AT or a straight or a flush, do you ike your hand. MAybe you like a ten hi flop and hope to trap the fish that like JT?
I play cautiously. I may fold to a bet on an ace or ten hi flop, I may just call. I may bet myself if checked to me. I may then follow through on the turn, or I may check. I may fold to a bet on the turn, or I may call. On the river, I will probably check it down, check-fold, or check-call. I don't know what I'll do until I see what happens on the flop. I mean, with just one pair, I will either win or lose a moderately small pot in relation to the stacks. You know me, with the money as deep as it was in the example, I would play a lot of hands in that situation and take it from there. I mean, I have position and the money is very deep. If someone wants to try and get my stack, or outplay me under those conditons, good luck to them.

Couple it with how I would play a set, a over pair, a top pair better kicker, a draw, or a total bluff, post flop in that situation and people won't know my hand strength. Lately, I have lost a lot of balance in this sense, between how I act with different hands, but I don't think my balance has gone completely. It is something I will need to work on in the summer though.

Maybe it's because I am playing more for recreation, and so want to play as many hands as possible.

Quote:
I belive in playing more hands when the money is deep, but AT is not one of them.
Depends what you mean by deep. I would play it with 100-200X BB stacks depending on the players already in the pot. Less than that, if teh pot is not worth stealing preflop and there is not enough wiggle room post flop should I limp, then I go with your view. What depth of money are you talking about? Would you never play it on 100X or 200X BB stacks?

Maybe I have loosened up too much during the last few months of less than serious play. Maybe this is a result of that. You are probably right.

I think your view comes from looking to win big pots. I agree, in that sense, ATo is trash. I don't expect to double through when I limp with ATo here. A small pot is all I am looking at. I think I can pick enough up on bluffs to make it profitable. I mean, i don't even like top 2 pair that much. It's a dangerous hand that could bust me.

If I fold hands like this, I can't help thinking I would only be playing 1 hand every hour and would never get called when I bet.

So, when you say loosen up, what hands are you talking about, and what depth of money is the cut-off for that?
 
Old
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Sun Jan 05, 2003, 03:52 PM
(#18)
Deleted user
Damn Noodles, I just woke up.

(1) If You can get away from top pair on the flop, you can play any number of hands. Most players are unable to do so and my comments are directed at the body of the membership here. As for rag hands like KJ and AT Spades, playing them at PSO and playing them in real tournaments are 2 entirely different things. You will see good players play AJ strong at PSO because they have notes on players and know player X will pay them off with JT when a jack flops. Some of these people have played 2-3-400 games with each other!!! My real no limit game is different from my PSO no limit game. My real no limit game would have me ranked around the 50% level. In fact, I think my rank is about 7% for 2003.

(2) In a 200x BB pot limit cash game I play in, I play about 70% of the flops. I play every piece of remotely connected crap you can ever imagine, and rely on my post flop play and player reads to stay out of trouble. When the money is sooooooo deep, you can play anything. This is why early rounds of tournaments are dangerous. In multi day events like the WSOP, it is not far from right to pretty much fold everything the entire first day unless you have tremendous post flop play ability.

(3) I want to win a big pot if it goes to a showdown. If you want to see my hand, I expect you to put your whole stack at risk to do so. I want to "pick up" small pots without a showdown. The small pots finance taking a shot at the big pots. This is a Brunson concept from supersystem, so if you don't like it yell at him. I happen to agree with it.
 
Old
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Sun Jan 05, 2003, 03:55 PM
(#19)
Deleted user
Ahhhhh Iron,
You made the re-raise? Well, that explains the call !! LMAO

8O
'Goddess
 
Old
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Mon Jan 06, 2003, 05:59 PM
(#20)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by apryllshowers
(1) If You can get away from top pair on the flop, you can play any number of hands. Most players are unable to do so and my comments are directed at the body of the membership here. As for rag hands like KJ and AT Spades, playing them at PSO and playing them in real tournaments are 2 entirely different things.
Dang man, no wonder I'm getting confused. I don't wanna know how to play in PSO tournaments

Quote:
My real no limit game is different from my PSO no limit game. My real no limit game would have me ranked around the 50% level. In fact, I think my rank is about 7% for 2003.
That's the game I'm interested in. Maybe PSO publicly and real game privately. Saves me getting confused. lol.

Quote:
(3) I want to win a big pot if it goes to a showdown. If you want to see my hand, I expect you to put your whole stack at risk to do so. I want to "pick up" small pots without a showdown. The small pots finance taking a shot at the big pots. This is a Brunson concept from supersystem, so if you don't like it yell at him. I happen to agree with it.
Why would I want to yell at him. I agree. One of the reasons I limp here with ATo is for the number of small pots I pick up when I miss. I thought I said that. Man, my writing skills must suck
 

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