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Hand 12433972 - Doc H

 
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Hand 12433972 - Doc H - Thu Jan 09, 2003, 05:51 PM
(#1)
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Quote:
$50 NLHE PSO Tournament, $5000 starting chips (1/6/03 9pmCST)
25/50 blinds, Most stacks 4k+, I have over 6k.

"When do you/can you expect a call of an all-in bet for most of the stacks early in a tournament with just a draw?"

"When do you commit all, esp. calling, with AK flopped pair(i.e. Top pair top kicker)?"

One fold, Two limpers to me in EP with AKs. I limp. The character of this table is not allowing much limping(but folding to any raise), so I think someone might raise it after me. I just got no action for a couple of hands, so I'm not looking to just make the $175 in the pot this early. I want spades, Ace, or King on flop.
Sure enough, the player after me raises $225(I'll name him "PR" for pre-flop raiser). One cold caller(I'll name him "CC") and the limpers call. I call.

Flop: Ace and 2 low hearts.

All check to "PR" (pre-flop raiser), and I check to him looking for a check-raise. He bets, but not just a pot bet but all-in for 3K+. The "CC" calls(leaving him with just a little left). I call with Top pair top kicker thinking the pre-flop raiser was buying it. I didn't think the "CC" had a set(I put him on AK or lower Ace, so worst is we'd split the pre-flop raiser's chips plus a little).

Turn: a 3rd heart

"CC" bets his last few chips. I Call leaving me with around 1600.

River: Blank.

"CC" won the pot and tripled-up early to $12K+ with Ax of hearts.
"PR" busted out with T9o (I don't remember if a 9 flopped).

I would have preferred "PR" to make a pot-sized bet on flop, "CC" call, then I raise a large amount(if not all-in). I hated to flat call two players essentially all-in, but went the "Get a large stack early so I can play tight without shallow pressure most would feel, or almost bust". I did last another hour with my short stack. It was still large enough to force others off hands(also had 2 chances for doubling-up if I saw any action to my excellent hands). I busted my $1800 out with 88 when I raised all-in from LP a limper who called with AQo can caught a 3 on river to make a wheel(pot was 4K+).
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2003, 06:16 PM
(#2)
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first off the limping with 77 and 22 are fine at such an early stage the AKs limping is ok but once you got the raise you wanted from the short stack and 2 callers now the pot is good to buy
only 2 hands seat 7 could have that should worry you AA and KK
the pot is 1100 before you call and you should have reraised all in
the T9 would give up his bluff or (if its a maniac call you and take some of your chips) the A8 would proberly give up and the 77 has a choice if he puts you on a bigger pp or a big ace and then decide what he wants to do.


post flop having got there seat 7 gets a raisers flop A high remember he was one representing the ace preflop by raising other possbile hands could include 99

the A8 got a perfect flop for him if your going to play Axs then when you get top pair and 4 to flush your going to take risk if you got player outchipped.
his call was basically saying i am all in as he had over 3k of his 4k in pot
if the AK had raised he was going to call so when turn comes perfect for A8 then AK makes crying call (has to call such a large pot for underr 1k.


all goes back to preflop a reraise with 1100 in could/should have won a nice pot but not even giving the others a chance to fold gave you no chance.

ps even if A8s didnt call the player in seat 7 on the stone cold bluff would have still taken half your stack.
 
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Mon Feb 03, 2003, 04:22 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
It would be nice if players would fold to a pre-flop all-in re-raise with AKs.
However, my experience is that many players with a mid pp would call that raise, hoping to win the coin flip early an be sitting pretty for the rest of the tournament. Even the Axs might call. There's plenty of players like that here at PSO and in tournaments for real money.
If this were a rebuy tournament in the rebuy period, of course it would be an all-in situation pre-flop (or later in freezeout).

That early, I wanted to just have some raise to limit the field that saw the flop, and then look for an Ace or King. Once you have "top pair, top kicker" with only 2 more cards to come, you're chances of being outdrawn are significantly less than "pre-flop no pair, just the best overcards".

As originally stated, being in such early position with those limpers would be an inviting situation for a late pos. player to raise. I just want any raise, I'll see the flop before re-raising.

The problem is that the bluffer caught a piece of the flop and raised all-in on a semi-bluff. He was trying to represent an Ace (big one at that), so my strategy worked in trapping his money. I had just expected a pot-sized or so raise. All-in was foolish. The Axs guy calls this substantial bet with such a week kicker. He probably wouldn't have without the flush draw. As I said, I don't like his call of such a large bet. A good player would not make this call with such a week kicker, so I'm looking good if he's not a good player and thinks his pair of Aces is gold. So, I call and hope for no set, no good player with more than aces(2-pair, flush draw). I'm willing to call a turn all-in bet, but I'd prefer a check and my all-in bet (even though unlikely given he has already committed over half of his chips, so a bet with power or on a semi-bluff is expected). If I lose to flopped Aces-up, that's just tough luck.

The point of having this hand analyzed was to know when someone is going to commit a large amount/all of his chips early in a freezeout tournament with such a semi-bluff(i.e. pair and draw). Also, without the pair, how likely would somone semi-bluff on the draw(and maybe without an Ace, if say the flop had a King instead, he would have another out of an ace(if the King paired an opponent who didn't also hold an ace).

Also, if you're going to try this move, what do you think players would have to hold to call such a semi-bluff.

In this hand, the A8s with a pair of Aces and flush draw was probably thinking that T3000 was enough to make me fold, so a re-raise would not be needed to isolate on the original bluffer. An added factor to this would be that I would see a large raise and a flat call. This call would be most scary, as it could not just be a bluff since it is a call of an al-in player. Therefore, I'm sure he was thinking I would fold. Even so, I don't think there'd be many hands I'd call that large raise with and not commit the rest of my stack to. So, if he's going to call that large flop bet he should probably have re-raised all in to further increase his chances of isolating. It's really a matter of what you think would work best. Sometimes that flat call is much more scary than a re-raise, since a re-raise is screaming "I want you to fold so I'm heads-up with the all-in guy".

Too bad the first guy caught 2-pair on the turn, and the other guy caught a flush. Both gotchas got me. If no 2-pair or better for the first guy(5 outs), and no flush or 2-pair for the 2nd guy(12 outs) then I'm sitting pretty in this tournament. What were my odds? 15 outs twice out of 43,42 cards, or 30:43 (around 1.433 - 1). I was hoping for better odds, but I was actually still ahead on the flop.

OK, any professor comments on this one? Lou, Mark, Barry, Rolf, Nolan?
 

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