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Bad call?

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Bad call? - Mon Oct 14, 2002, 09:50 PM
(#1)
Deleted user
NLHE starting chips are 1000 blinds at 50/100. I have aprx 5000.
2 spots right of the button and I have A9o. A middle player has aprx 2500 in chips raises 100, All fold to me and I call. The BB at 3500 also calls.I put the raiser on a small or med pp and I wasn't sure on the bb yet.
The flop came: A95 Giving me top two pair.
The BB checked and middle player bet 650 I called as did the BB.
I still have the middle player on a pp, and the BB on A rag.
The turn was a J, and the same betting took place check bet 650, call call.
The river was a three, the bb checked the middle player went all in for 950 I called and the bb re-raised for 680 putting him all in and I called.
the middle player had AKs
the BB had A5
Before he left the middle player questioned my call. I said in a late position with a raise only 1xthe BB I would see the flop.
Because this was a person who's play and opinions I respect I got to wondering IF is was a bad call.

--Matt--
 
Old
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Mon Oct 14, 2002, 10:22 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
I would think so. He has 2500 stack and you call 200 raise with A9 2 from button. Doesn't seem like a good call. Raising to 600 or 800 would be better than calling if you decided to play. He might not be as good as you think judging by his bets on later streets, or indeed his raise preflop.
 
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Fri Oct 18, 2002, 01:55 PM
(#3)
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asking to be called? I think noodles is saying that $200 from a $2500 stack implies business but calling $200 from a $5,000 stack doesn't appear to be the worst call in the world - not to say that it should be made everytime, but occassionally seems appropriate - perhaps considering what 57SAUCE knew about play conditions at the table.

Maybe I'm not paying close enough attention but I'm sure I see good players (at least those that I think that I have identified as good) making loose calls like this as their chip count increases. Of course, once the flop came, it put 57sauce into the game. (Don't challenge me to pay closer attetion, I will, that's why I'm in the beginner's forum.)

Isn't the worse mistake a bad read from the AK aggressor? Even if the original call was bad, he had to be concerned when AJ showed up on the turn with no K in sight.

I'm also confused about suggesting raising $600-800. As the betting is described, it sounds like AK would have called and committed A9 to a hand that everyone seems to agree he shouldn't have been in from the start. This raise sounds like a bigger gamble than the call.

I'm looking forward to reading where I'm all wrong. I don't know that I would have played the A9, but if I had, I think it would have been in a similar style.
 
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Fri Oct 18, 2002, 04:02 PM
(#4)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstrsig
I'm also confused about suggesting raising $600-800. As the betting is described, it sounds like AK would have called and committed A9 to a hand that everyone seems to agree he shouldn't have been in from the start. This raise sounds like a bigger gamble than the call.
What does a limit raise from MP represent? Weak Ace, or middle pair, or big suited connectors (KQs) are the first possibilities. The other is a 'tricky' player with AA or KK wanting a re-raise to go all-in with.

What would a late re-raise represent? A big Ace or a middle or big pair wanting to drive out the blinds a play heads up. So why not come over-the-top in this situation? It will chase out the blinds unless they wake up to a premium hand and if the MP weak raiser doesn't want to get heads-up with a likely pair they will fold.

The reason to call is to keep the blinds in the pot for your draw and A9o isn't a great drawing hand. A9s, a small pair to middle pair or connectors might warrant a call if the table was playing limit style, which is not unusual in the small starting chip events.
 
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Fri Oct 18, 2002, 06:32 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstrsig
I'm also confused about suggesting raising $600-800. As the betting is described, it sounds like AK would have called and committed A9 to a hand that everyone seems to agree he shouldn't have been in from the start. This raise sounds like a bigger gamble than the call.
Well, I think folding the hand is best the vast majority of the time. But I think if you want to play the hand, raising is better than calling. It does depend on the type of player that raised though.

When you re-raise, you are not really doing it because of the hands merits. Your are playing the raiser, your position, and the stack sizes in order to put them to a decision for all their chips. If you make the raise suggested, it is probably very unlikely that you would see the flop, depending on the opponent. Either they will re-raise all-in or fold, or of course somebody else will if they wake up with a hand. Either way, you either win it there or fold to the re-raise. Your 2 cards are pretty insignificant except for the fact that you having an ace reduces the chances that they, or anybody else has aces or a big ace able to stand the heat. I would prefer to do this in a bit later position than 2 off the button though.

One thing to realise is that because it was only 200 for you to call, a re-raise greatly increases the chances of you having a big pair, than it would if it was 300 for you to call. I know I wouldn't have re-raised with JJ or QQ here, but I would have if it was 300 to call. I only reraise with AA, KK, maybe AK or any 2 cards as a bluff because of the stated depth of money. Another reason why the minimum raise was a mistake in that spot with the stated stack sizes. If it was 300 or more to call initially I wouldn't have considered bluff raising or just flat calling with hands like QQ. The depth of money and implied odds are the main reason for this. Making the total bet size less than 10% of the relevant stack size was the mistake in that sense.
 
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Fri Oct 18, 2002, 10:54 PM
(#6)
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Noodles wrote:

Quote:
One thing to realise is that because it was only 200 for you to call, a re-raise greatly increases the chances of you having a big pair, than it would if it was 300 for you to call. I know I wouldn't have re-raised with JJ or QQ here, but I would have if it was 300 to call. I only reraise with AA, KK, maybe AK or any 2 cards as a bluff because of the stated depth of money. Another reason why the minimum raise was a mistake in that spot with the stated stack sizes. If it was 300 or more to call initially I wouldn't have considered bluff raising or just flat calling with hands like QQ. The depth of money and implied odds are the main reason for this. Making the total bet size less than 10% of the relevant stack size was the mistake in that sense.
All right, you've confused the hell out of me.

If he does standard raise of $300, you are not even going to call with QQ. Do you fold it?

The $100 is damn supsicious to me, making it less likely I want to play here.

BTW I am folding the A9s as fast as I can, whether it is $100 or $300. The biggest thing an A9 has to fear is an AT or AJ, which are the likely hands besides an 88 or 77, if the $100 is not disguising a KK or AA.


Randall
 
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Fri Oct 18, 2002, 11:47 PM
(#7)
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Quote:
If he does standard raise of $300, you are not even going to call with QQ. Do you fold it?
No, with a raise to 300 I re-raise. With a raise to only 200 I usually just call in that particular example.
 
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Some thoughtsl.... - Sat Oct 19, 2002, 01:11 AM
(#8)
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rggator said:
Quote:
BTW I am folding the A9s as fast as I can,
The hand in question was actually A9o, although being suited in this example make little difference unless two people before you call the 1x raise and then the nut flush draw might come into play. But I would follow rg's advice and fold A9o as fast as possible pre-flop facing a 1x raise, unless I was absolutely positive the raiser was trying for a 1x steal or he would fold to my re-raise. And in that case I follow Noodles logic and raise preflop. Some variation of Hazy's "How to play and Alien" logic. But I do not ever call with this in the situation described. Because I do not want to see a flop with this hand.

The pre-flop re-raise over the top would tell the 1x raiser that you've either got AK or a pair you are comfortable raising over the top of his Aface or small pair he 1x raised with. You force him to make a decision for most if not all his chips. 'Noodles Pressure' at it's finest. If he comes back over the top of you, you make a decision based upon your read of whether he trapped you, or is bluffing. But to call is the worst of all worlds. Fold or re-raise.

What flop would be good for you? A,9,small? and the odds of that happening are????? You must flop A9 and no k, Q, J, or 10, and hope that if he did have a small pair that he didn't hit for trips, and then you are going to have to raise for all your chips to ensure no draw outs. Jesus, who wants all that? An A alone means you are way behind. Any other face card and if the early raiser raises you have to release.

Now, I make this 1x raise play with AK when I think I have a read on the players at the table, and I have some stack to play with. It is not by the book but, it is a tremendous trapper in the right circumstances. If i know a person will play A9-AQ facing a 1x raise preflop, I will do it once in a great while, all circumstances being right. Wrong flop hits, I release the hand. I lose 2 bets. Right flop hits I punish the A mid player heavily, and leave a very lasting impression on the rest of the table that I use to my advantage as the play moves on. The objective being to get that A mid player in with me alone. And punish him for playing that paltry hand.
 

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