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Recent live tourney

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Recent live tourney - Tue Oct 15, 2002, 10:49 AM
(#1)
Deleted user
I was playing in a £10 PLHE rebuy tourney at my local casino last week when I found myself in a tricky situation.

There were 15 left and I had a relatively small stack of about 7000 but the blinds were still only 200/200 (no small blind). I was in late position with KsQs and called, there had been 3 callers before me including a notrious rock UTG.

The flop came down Kh Js Ts

it was checked until it got to a guy in mid-position who raised 1000, I called and so did the guy UTG.

The turn was the Kc

UTG bet 2000 and the guy next to me raised all-in for about 10000.

I thought for a while and then noticed that 2 others had been knocked out at the other table, this tourney paid the top 10 and so I folded for 3 reasons :-

1. UTG is a class player who plays in a lot of the big tourneys and I knew he had a hand. He nearly always plays AK and AQ from UTG without a raise.

2. I figured one of them must also have the straight and although I may still have 10+ outs I would find a better spot to put my money in .

3. I also thought that although I would now have the lowest chips left in the tourney I would still stand a chance of making the final due to the number of maniacs left.

I passed, UTG called, and unfortunately the dealer turned over my hand by accident and a few observers began to criticise the way I played the hand.

The river was a Queen and UTG turned over AQ, the other guy mucked his hand and finished 13th.

On the next round I was dealt AA, managed to get all my chips in and suffered a bad beat to finish 11th.

All night after this some of the top players at the casino were criticising my play apart from the guy UTG whose opinion I respect as he has done very well for himself in the UK and the USA.

This one hand has been playing on my mind like no other and I am interested to hear from others on here what their opinions are? am I too tight? was it the correct play?

Sorry for the long post but I couldn't condense the info much more.
 
Old
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Tue Oct 15, 2002, 11:27 AM
(#2)
Deleted user
i think the pass on the turn was correct but my flop play would have been reraise or pass. then again i know nothing

what were your motives for the check on the flop?
how much did 10th pay? £100 ?
if it wasn't for the bad beat on the bubble would this hand still trouble u?
 
Old
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Tue Oct 15, 2002, 12:34 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
On the flop is where it went wrong. I think it is quite clear to raise the full pot trying to either take it there or get it all-in headsup. The rock had not given any indication they had a hand. They could have limped with some kind of PP. When you make a full raise, the rock would probably set you all-in. If it was then headsup when it got back to you, you have to call if the odds are right and they probably are even though you know he has the straight. If it was 3-way when it got back to you, it is a tough one. You could be drawing very slim. Not sure what would be best. Depends on how many outs you think you have and the odds you are getting. If there is any chance you think your flush draw could still be live, then you definitely call. Whether it could still be live on the flop 3-way after all that action is one tough question to work through though. Usually you would be drawing very slim and would fold, In this situation though, because of the money you would have committed on the flop it would depend on how big the element of doubt. If that doubt was big enough that the flush may be live, call.
 
Old
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Tue Oct 15, 2002, 05:34 PM
(#4)
Deleted user
With 5 other limpers, you are most-likely beat afer the flop if you see any action. Yes AK and AQ are possible, but also KJ, KT, JT, or Q9. Probably KK would have raised pre-flop, but JJ or TT could also have limped. Your flush draw may be in trouble with the A:s: out there.
I think TJ says to watch out if more than one high card flops. With 3 high cards, straight possibilities, and 5 others seeing the flop cheap you really have to watch out. I know you want to finish in the top 3 in a tournament and not just make the money, but with your relatively small stack you should be eyeing the money. Stay away from such peril and attack preflop with position or great cards. A re-raise on the flop is very dangerous. The straight or two-pair will call/raise, and maybe other hands. Even if you have everyone beat then(which is very unlikely), a caller or two (with large stacks) could still draw-out on you.

If you just call the flop, the turn likely doesn't help you and you will be looking at huge bet. Then you'd be committed to the hand (all-in then or on river) if you stay in it(call/raise). Even with the King on the turn you are still in trouble. Not just from the straight, but from a possible full house. A spade on the turn makes you better, but still the Ace-high flush is possible(then or with a 4th spade on the river). A queen on the turn is no help as it then requires only an Ace or nine for the straight, and a nine on the turn gives you a lower straight than AQ.

I think the biggest factor on this hand is how many saw the flop. If only one other player saw the flop, you could play like AK or AQ is not in his hand until he puts in some chips(i.e. bets, calls your large raise, or re-raises). With that many seeing the flop, you have to hit it better with at least two-pair and not have it look so dangerous.

Scott "DocH"
 
Old
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Tue Oct 15, 2002, 06:37 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Good post doc. With that reasoning, you should post more often.

Quote:
With that many seeing the flop, you have to hit it better with at least two-pair and not have it look so dangerous.
If hitting top pair with an open ended stright flush draw isn't considered good enough then I think it's an arguament for folding preflop rather than on the flop. When it is bet to you, and you then put in a full sized raise, usually commited to going for the rest of your stack if need be, do you seriously think anyone except maybe the flop bettor is going to go with a 2pr hand? I would say that anyone between you and the flop bettor is going to need the straight to go with it. At the very least a set. If no-one has that straight then you are likely to either win it there or get it all-in headsup against the bettor if they do decide to go with whatever they have. In that case you will still have a very good chance. You'll be the favourite over some of them and close against others.

You are certainly right about considering the number of players that saw the flop. I had forgot about that. You are likely to be against a decent hand, but just how decent? Certainly the flop bettor could be betting a number of hands that you would like them to have, and his bet and position gives your raise extra leverage against the remaining opponents stuck in the middle. I think there is a wide enough element of doubt to go for it, considering the stack size. If you can't when you hit that flop, then folding preflop would have been best I think.

Calling certainly is the worse option by far.
 
Old
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Fri Oct 18, 2002, 04:29 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
NLHE and PLHE is about reading your opponents. If you had a strong read that they have AQ, I think you made the correct decision on the turn.

The call on the flop is not one I would make.

I also question UTG's decision to slowplay with 2 of one suit on the flop when he has hit the nuts.


Back to your play: By calling with the KQs preflop, you are hoping to make a perfect flop: KQx rainbow. Or AJT. I am not sure you are getting the right odds to do this. 5 to 1 at most.

At some tables I am playing this: i.e., I got a good read on my opponents and I know if I hit top pair, I am reasonably sure I got top kicker by their actions (preflop and postflop). Still a very risky hand in big bet poker, despite being suited. With UTG in there, u have no assurance of that.


Randy

PS, I know, I know, I played an identical hand, but... I was SB and getting 7 to 1. I await for the slings and arrows. :wink:

PSS Iknow, I know, SB is out of position post flop. Don't even say it... :roll:
 
Old
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Fri Oct 18, 2002, 06:36 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by rggator
PS, I know, I know, I played an identical hand, but... I was SB and getting 7 to 1. I await for the slings and arrows. :wink:

PSS Iknow, I know, SB is out of position post flop. Don't even say it... :roll:
Geez Randall. You spoil all my fun
 
Old
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Fri Oct 18, 2002, 10:13 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
LOL.

I look at his play and see my own mistaken hopes and dreams for my hand.




Randall
 
Old
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Wed Oct 23, 2002, 10:07 AM
(#9)
Deleted user
Thanks for the input guys, My decision to fold was based mainly on the strong read I had on one player (He is fairly famous in the UK and taught me a lot about the game). The criticism I was getting from the other players was not to do with that though. They reckoned that even if I was certain that he had AQ I should still have called because I had so many outs.

Maybe I'm not aggressive enough but I'm playing off a small bankroll right now and trying to get myself into the money rather than concentrate solely on winning tourneys so I can get back into the bigger games.

The Rake
 

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