Home / Community / Forum / Support Area / Poker News /

Tight, Aggressive thoughts

Old
Default
Tight, Aggressive thoughts - Wed Jan 15, 2003, 01:22 PM
(#1)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASTRO
Barry,

Thanks for your talk in Tunica, great job!

Now, i've been reading some of doyle's super system, and find myself in a mental battle.

Playing very aggressive style is something I hear alot about, however you also hear that basic solid poker wins the cash most of the time.

When to be the guy on attack vs. the guy who can lay down a monster. I describe my game as one of few gambles, when i move i feel i have the best of it. But I find myself getting short stacked too often in this case, in tourneys. I know you play more ring games but was wondering if you could advise me on wheather my style is too tight for tourneys or not.

Question for you #2.
With the hands you play vs. the pros in your game how do you get action if you are playing the premium hands? I took that from you talk, if I'm wrong please explain.

Thank you
for your time

ASTRO
Don Turley
Hi, Astro: I have moved your question to a new thread so people who already read the Tunica stuff can look at it.

You ask good tough questions. I will take a shot.

Question 1: When to be the guy on attack vs. the guy who can lay down a monster. I describe my game as one of few gambles, when i move i feel i have the best of it. But I find myself getting short stacked too often in this case, in tourneys. I know you play more ring games but was wondering if you could advise me on wheather my style is too tight for tourneys or not.

Answer 1: Well, the short form answer is "yes you are too tight." Of course, I say this without watching you play, but the bottom line is you simply cannot be selective/aggressive in tournaments. You have to be very aware of the blind escalation, you chip count vs. average and the size of other stacks. Tounaments force you to gamble, or you will be the short stack in every event in which the deck does not hit you. Of course, gambling may result in losses, but playing with a short stack is just a slow death.

You need to make moves in tournaments at some stage whether you have a hand or not. And that point needs to be BEFORE you have to, while you still have credibility. You don't really think TJ and Men and Daniel and Layne and these guys just get good cards when they need them?

The best moves (opinions vary greatly) are raises in reasonably early or medium position with hands that might possibly win a showdown: Aces and pairs. These are all hands you should lay down in a ring game in these positions.

Tight players, no mattrer how aggressive, do not win their share of tournaments...fairly tight, gutsy, situational and lucky players do. YOu need to be all of these. Gamble a little early, do not play drawing hands after the first couple of rounds, be the aggressor and read David Sklansky's book.

Question for you #2.
With the hands you play vs. the pros in your game how do you get action if you are playing the premium hands? I took that from you talk, if I'm wrong please explain.

Answer: Ah, that is the art. I play many more hands then you would suspect, but only in late position. I try very hard to be in when bad players are in the pot, and may play a very substandard hand to do this. And I, like any reasonable person, avoid pros. But the variety of hands I play, and my willingness to put several bets in when I feel I am closely ahead, or maybe even behind, convinces people I am unpredictable, so I get calls on my better hands (which, you are correct, is most of them).

This is a very hard topic to discuss. I will give you one hand from yesterday's game where I played, and won, with a very bad hand. I am in the big blind in my usual $30-$60. Oddly, several players call the blind (usually there is an open raise in this game). The small blind, who raises too much out of the small blind, raises. I chose to call with 6d4d. All call, so we are seven handed. FLop is Kd76. the small blind bets. Well, the pot is too big to lay down this piece of cheese, with its bottom pair, backdoor flush draw, backdoor straight draw, so I raise! Two callers plus the small blind. Turn is a miracle 4! I bet when checked to, all call. River is a less thean perfect 5 (board is now K7654). I check here (ignoring my excellent advice to bet the river; as usual when I ignore my advice, I am wrong) : . All check, I show 2-pair and win a nice pot. Thoose people who noticed not my hand but my raise on the flop now chide (nice for ridicule) me. But they will remember this raise, and pay me next time I flop a set instead.

Long, failrly useless answer, but it is very hard to put my playing style in a few words. It is not tight. It is not loose. It is situational.

Note: I did not play any hands in the last hour of my session. I do not mind that, and I do not go out of my way to play trash hands.

Does this help at all?

Best,

BarryT
 
Old
Default
Wed Jan 15, 2003, 04:26 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
Barry, can't tell you what a pleasure it was to meet you and hear your talk at the seminar.

I read this post and could hear your voice and intonations and humour as I did, I laughed so hard at a couple of points I had to get a paper towel to clean my CRT......
 
Old
Default
Wed Jan 15, 2003, 09:33 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
I have another example, if I grasp what you are saying, Barry. In Tunica, I was playing a rather boring 3-6 game. The game had a big fish in it who was sitting on 3+ racks of chips, but was hardly playing, he was buzzed and bored. He played about 1 of every 4 hands or so, but the hands he did play were crap like 75s, I have no idea what he was folding. Anyway, two 15-30 players sit down to his left while waiting on a game and just really start playing it up. They're chatting up the fish, laughing, ribbing, straddling, playing trash, and they get him going and throwing chips away like crazy. Im at the other end of the table. The fish is in the BB, the two guys straddle, next guy throws in a third straddle, two fold to me, I have KTo. The two guys next to me have rocked up since the game got wilder, so I raise. The BB fish calls as do the 2nd and 3rd straddle. Flop couldnt be better, 9JQ, nut str8, rainbow board. A bet and a raise before it even gets to me. I win a huge pot with trash I would normally not play, because of the situation with the straddle. KT rates to be better than the straddles random hands.

--Greagar
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 16, 2003, 08:44 AM
(#4)
Deleted user
Awesome Greagar. I too had a rememberable hand in a 3-6 game where I "Went to the Dark Side". Sorry. I have to tell a poker story.

I am up early (6 am or so) and find boring tight red chip games in the Gold Strike, but lots of chips and beer on the fired up 3-6 game with several off-duty dealers (Thank You Nolan. This is the game for me!!!) and an empty seat. Lots of raises, a few straddles, lots of jokes and laughter. I see a few flops, win a few with power cards like 9-10 and such and then I get K-J on the button.(One of these cards was the burn because the dealer exposed one of my cards) It is a raise to me and I call. The BB raises and the original raiser reraises, so I cap it (Read in one of Roy Cooke's articles that if it is going to get capped, then you might as well be the capper) 8 people see the flop. flop has a 10 and a Q. One puny bet on the flop and one puny bet on the turn which I call. River is a wonderful Ace. Very few people bailed out because the pot was so big.


Forgive me Barry, as I used your thread to tell a poker story. I too am looking forward to more of your posts and insight. I did very well in Tunica at the 3-6 and 4-8 games. I played some 10-20 also, but felt more "insecure" in my hands. I cashed out ok in two of the sessions, but played badly in one session and gave all (and more) of my winnings back. I played a lot tighter than the previous example. Keep em coming Barry. Your corner of the forum is one of the first ones I come to now.

Shane aka Jeff

ps. You probably play with Roy Cooke some. A lot of us are familiar with his name and writings. Can you share insights on how you view his play?
 
Old
Default
Thu Jan 16, 2003, 04:58 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Thanks Barry,

Yes, that does help. I took a word I've not seen used very often as the key to your answers. " situational" I think that is part of my game that was lacking. Being aggressive with less of a hand in the right situation.

Would you agree that the situational attack, is determined by the actions of the opposition and your postion on them more than the value of your hand?

thanks for your time
astro
 
Old
Default
Answers to posts - Fri Jan 17, 2003, 02:12 AM
(#6)
Deleted user
Hi. Let me try to answer some of the questions. But first, thanks for the questions. I am very please it is no longer so lonely here.

Greagar makes a small mathematical error. Yes, your hand rates to be better than any of the straddlers, but it does not rate to be the best if there are three or four of them. One of them will have a better hand (any ace, any pair, better king) most of the time. And KT is not even a hand I recommend for ONE bet most of the time. So the straddlers got you as bit loose, but that's OK. When you do hit the miracle flop, they never go away and you collect huge winnings. In general, though, you want an easierhand to play, such as a pair or suited Ace. (Note the effect of the straddlers on the loose player. This IS an excellent strategy. If you can get the loose guy to gamble with you, the small investment is going to pay for itself over and over).

Likewise, Shane, please do not give my lecture credit for your playing KJ on the button for a raise. I want to be invited back! I am glad to hear you played tighter most f the time. And it is nice to win those huge pots, isn't it. Please use my forum to tell any poker story you would like.

About Roy Cooke: Yes we play in the same game. We also golf together. He is fun to play with. He is one of the world's slowest players, which annoys some people. I never get annoyed at the table. Mostly, he is thinking about all of the stuff he SAYS he thinks about in his column. He is a very good player, but he is not quite as good as he used to be. He only plays weekends now, with his real estate business, child, wife golf , and Planet Poker work taking up the bulk of his time. It really help to play every day if you want to be at the very top of your game.

Astro, your statement : Would you agree that the situational attack, is determined by the actions of the opposition and your postion on them more than the value of your hand?

is very close to perfect. I often tell people that the major mistake they make in hold'em is to look at their hand. I do not mean they should play no-peek, but rather they should think much more about what their opponent thinks they might have rather than what they actually do have. Yes, in my game position and people are FAR more important than the cards I hold Yes, Yes, Yes.

Thanks for the posts. I will go do the other threads now.

BarryT
 
Old
Default
Re: Tight, Aggressive thoughts - Sun Dec 05, 2004, 05:43 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryT
I will give you one hand from yesterday's game where I played, and won, with a very bad hand. I am in the big blind in my usual $30-$60. Oddly, several players call the blind (usually there is an open raise in this game). The small blind, who raises too much out of the small blind, raises. I chose to call with 6d4d. All call, so we are seven handed. FLop is Kd76. the small blind bets. Well, the pot is too big to lay down this piece of cheese, with its bottom pair, backdoor flush draw, backdoor straight draw, so I raise! Two callers plus the small blind. Turn is a miracle 4! I bet when checked to, all call. River is a less thean perfect 5 (board is now K7654). I check here (ignoring my excellent advice to bet the river; as usual when I ignore my advice, I am wrong) : . All check, I show 2-pair and win a nice pot. Thoose people who noticed not my hand but my raise on the flop now chide (nice for ridicule) me. But they will remember this raise, and pay me next time I flop a set instead.
14 SB on the flop.
With bottom pair you have 5 outs or 9.4:1 to call
w/ BDFD thats +1.5 outs for 6.5 outs or 7.2:1 to call
w/ BDSD w/ 1 gap thats +1 outs for 7.5 outs or 6.26:1 to call

Is my math good?

SB bets for 15 SB in the pot. You are getting 15:1 pot odds and you need 6.26:1 to call. It's obvious that you are getting the odds to call, but what justifications are you using for a raise?

With a raise, if only the SB calls there will be 9 BB in the pot. If you miss your BDFD and BDSD and the SB bets you will be getting 10:1 pot odds to call making your bottom pair 5 outer (which needs 9.2:1) marginably playable. As is, 3 people called so you were getting 11 BB on the turn. With a raise from the small blind you would get 12:1 to call which makes your 9.2:1 odds look better.

You were in the BB so I doubt raising on the flop would of given you a free card on the turn. There were 5 people behind you, so one of them would of probably bet if you checked.

I guess I'm still trying to figure what justifies a raise, and what doesn't.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com