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Help, Im Naked

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Help, Im Naked - Thu Oct 17, 2002, 12:14 PM
(#1)
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Last night in the PLO tournament I made the following play, which touched off an interesting discussion. More opinions wanted.


Blinds at 150/300 (or close) 3 limpers, I had AA3s2 on the button, I raised the pot, everyone folded. I then joked about me having the low locked up and told my hand (chatty table). Sarge makes a snide comment about playing just 2 cards and touches off an interesting discussion with myself and BA and gatorhb joined in. I tried to ask Randy his opinion, but he just kept muttering to himself "two from hand, three from board" over and over.

Anyway, I was wondering what some of you omahaolics opinions are (in general) on naked Aces (w/o backup)? My situation not exactly same as I had a suit on, but say AA39 no suit as an example. Automatically play? Raise? Fold? Conditions?
Anyone have the means to run a simulation? Naked aces against say 910JQ dbl suited and maybe a few more (single suited, one gap, etc.)?

--Greagar
 
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Thu Oct 17, 2002, 01:33 PM
(#2)
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The really sad thing is that when I read the title of the post, I knew exactly what you meant 8O 8O Now I know I need help LOL....

I think what sparked sarges comment is that many people,preflop, play Omaha like HE...THey see a big pair and they raise....sometimes not even a big pair and sometimes with AK,ignoring the other two cards in their hand.....

The real point is that you can't ignore the other two cards, because what happens if you need them instead of the AA.

I don't think anyone told you never to play this hand, it is just important to know what you can really hope to expect from the hand as a WHOLE.

I would say especially in PL because you can get caught real fast in a board that will turn against you.

Say that the flop was AJ9....now you are stuck because you have trips, and you really have no other outs. Anyone with a str8 potential is going to stick with you......

Double suited possibly gives you more edge, but say the board was J109 with 2 of your suit you are still in trouble in PL trying to stay in long enough to make your hand when someone probably already has the str8.

I wonder what the concensus will be on this but I say see the flop for one bet and if two other Aces dont show up....run :lol: :lol:
 
Old
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Thu Oct 17, 2002, 01:51 PM
(#3)
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i would in PLO try to play the AA23 as cheapy as possible

if a raise before me from a "solid" player i would fold it

PLO as i have found out is more about folding than any other version of poker.
last night i played in a 67 person PLO tourny i busted out about 27th on only my 4th hand i played when i got a free look at a flop from bb and made a boat on turn and lost to a better boat on river.


AA23 is ok if you can get it in cheap but a very hard hand to play if you dont hit a set or a boat
 
Old
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Thu Oct 17, 2002, 02:08 PM
(#4)
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It all depends on position, and stack size Greagar. There are times I will raise pot preflop with AA23 one suited, and other times I will limp.

Times I will limp

1) Early in a tourney
2) Early position
3) Late position, multiple limpers in front of me

Times I will raise
1) Middle of a tourney, when I am in need of a double up, want to isolate and take a chance on doing exactly that
2) Any time I have a proportionately bigger stack than the people that have either limped in front of me, or are yet to act
3) Final table, regardless

I could expand on that quite a bit more, but that should give you the general idea. Generally speaking, big pairs in and by themselves lose value in Omaha Hi when they don't have protection. Personally speaking, I thought you were playing 3 cards not just two (with the suited), and you did have low board potential if a all low flop came. What I don't like is a hand like AA49 rainbow. I might even muck this preflop.

Hope this helps.

Hazy
 
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Re: Help, Im Naked - Thu Oct 17, 2002, 02:16 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greagar
Blinds at 150/300 (or close) 3 limpers, I had AA3s2 on the button, I raised the pot, everyone folded.
You don't mention the stack sizes relative to the blinds... but anyway (and assuming one of those Aces was s00ted, as it seems)

In your position it's an easy pot raise. You aim to win it here.
None of the limpers has a better hand. Once in a jillion years one of the blinds will have a bigger AA.

Your AA wasn't quite nekkid, just a little exposed. If you can get it headsup here with most/all of the money in you have done the right thing. If the money is so deep (doesn't look that way) that there's some play to come then your position gives you the advantage.

fwiw, I'd bet the pot here 100% of the time.

cheers
 
Old
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Thu Oct 17, 2002, 03:52 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehazyone
Times I will limp....
3) Late position, multiple limpers in front of me
This is where we might have to agree to differ, hazy... Dramatically...

The fact of multiple limpers increases the pot size to the point where a pot-raise now is heavy, and on the button is the perfect place to do it.

Is it conceivable one of those limpers can possibly call your fat raise? Barely possible, but I really don't think so. If they do you have the better of it (unless - very unlikely- they limped with a better AA), plus position. If they limped with a big stack advantage, well, so be it, but we dont have that information here. And in that case you must go with a presumably better hand.

A weak AA is vulnerable when raising up front, but not on the button with 3 limpers.

yours dogmatically :wink:

Glenn

p.s. when I stick my stupid neck out in these discussions, I usually head for rgp for opinion.... check rgp....
 
Old
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Thu Oct 17, 2002, 08:34 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
Good replies by all.

Rosita sums up my thinking on that particular hand very well. Even if someone did call the raise, it would be very unlikely I was behind. I'd still love to see some numbers though, if someone has the means to run some sims.

The money was deep enough for some play on the flop and possibly through a river, depending on which limper called. I had 15k and the first limper was chip leader at table with about 30k at the time, I believe. Other two were smaller stacks than I was, but not significantly.

Gator, you do need help. I figured the title would get your interest but for different reasons. 8)

--Greagar
 
Old
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Thu Oct 17, 2002, 09:09 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Glenn,

Again this is just personal preference and I think I do alright at PLO here, and at pstars tourneys (have never played a live one, however, so my experience is limited to those two locales).

The problem I have raising bare aces in late position with multiple limpers is generally speaking one of them will invariably be limping, hoping for a reraise so they can max the pot out, and while aces are indeed the best starting hand regardless of your backup - I am not willing to commit all of my chips with AAxx low one suited.

However, like 95% of poker, this all depends on who I am playing with and my stack size. If BlackAces, gatorhb, you and minpin are the limpers in front of me, I'm gonna be cautious. If it's "fill in the blank maniac" I might take a shot. It's as apryll said a long time ago, poker is all about table dynamics - and while the statement applied to Hold Em it can be applied to PLO as well.

I invariably will NOT raise pot with AA23 UTG. However, I will bust someone who DOES raise pot with AA23 UTG with my KQQJ ds when they don't hit an ace and bet pot on a KJ4 board, and watch me reraise them all in. It's happened more times than you would believe - and is one of my reasons for not giving bare aces as much respect as others might.

Aaron
 
Old
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Thu Oct 17, 2002, 10:50 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
LOL, Greagar. Sorry no help there last night. I was waiting for the PLO gurus to hash it out.

I think you were taking a bit of a risk, but...

3 of the 4 limpers were likely to fold. Me, and two others. The 4th was a big stack and a very loose one. So if he does come after you preflop, you have to commit.

The problem comes if he just calls and the flop is 79J or something. He would call (preflop) with a hand a 468T.

Anyway, I think it was a calculated risk at that stage of the tournament. One I probably would have made, but I am no expert at PLO.

Randy


PS, I got all my chips in from the BB (w/ KK83 s) against a very loose player who raised from the SB. Hey, how did I know he would have AA that time. I should have mucked, since I truly did have nothing going besides the KK. Just bad NLHE reactions kicking in.
 
Old
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Fri Oct 18, 2002, 05:24 AM
(#10)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greagar
The money was deep enough for some play on the flop and possibly through a river, depending on which limper called. I had 15k and the first limper was chip leader at table with about 30k at the time, I believe. Other two were smaller stacks than I was, but not significantly
--Greagar
I wasn't visualising stacks that big I must admit.
So the big stack might call the pot raise of 1500 or so (?) and there's some playing to be done, but you still have position, might well have it checked to you on the flop, and maybe can put them on a range of hands. I'd still pot it with that hand/situation aiming to take the pot pre-flop, but will definitely not get broke on the hand if a few broadway cards show up out there.

cheers
 

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