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Raising with AKo

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Raising with AKo - Mon Oct 28, 2002, 09:05 PM
(#1)
Deleted user
Barry,

I thought a raise with AKo was always appropriate if no one had raised yet. But HPFAP says the following in the second paragraph of the chapter called "Heads-Up Versus Multiway" on page 92.

"Conversely,when you hold big unsuited cards, your opponents are getting implied odds from you. Therefore, it is wrong to raise with unsuited high cards in multiway pots, and it may be right to fold hands like AT, KT, and even AJ and KJ."

I've been through this book twice before, but somehow that statement apparently didn't sink in until now. Would you agree with just calling several limpers when you hold AKo?

EPS
 
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AKo in multiway pots - Wed Oct 30, 2002, 02:08 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
Ths is a very dificult area you have selected. First, I (almost) always raise first in with AKo. Parto f the idea in doing this is to avoid the multiway pots HPFAP is discussing. However, I do not raise in late position if many players have already called the blind. In fairness, I should say that many excellent players do.

They raise because they have the best hand, and they should therefore win a better than average share of pots and want the pots they do win to be large. this makes sense.

The counter-arguement, which I support, goes something like this:

1. In a multi-way pot, large unsuited connectors go down in value. They may be high on some chart, but their relative playing strength goes down. With high unsuited connectors, you are trying to make one pair/big kicker and have it hold up. In a multiway pot one pair does not win ofen enough to justify the pre-flop raise.

2. There is considerable post-flop tactical value in not being the raiser in this situation. If an A or K falls on the flop, you want to eliminate players in an attempt to make your made hand hold up. What you want is someone to bet so you can raise. If you are the pre-flop raiser, your opponents tend to check to you and call when you bet (because the pot is large...partly because you made it large).

3. When you miss the flop with AK, as you will nearly 2/3 of the time, you want to get off your hand. Yes, I know you will have overcards, but paying to catch one pair which may well not hold up in a large field is silly. This minimizes your loss in the majority of hands in which you mis the flop.

4. By not raising, you keep the pot (relatively) small. Therefore, when your opponents do elect to chase you after you have hit one of your cards, they are making significant mathematical mistakes.

By the way, almost all top players do not raise from either blind with AKo in a large pot. In addition to the above reasons, they are now also out of position making the hand that much more difficult to play.

Does this help clarify the issue, or have I just muddied the waters some more?
 
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Wed Oct 30, 2002, 03:04 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
That's very clear. Thanks.
 
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Wed Oct 30, 2002, 04:58 PM
(#4)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Very good points.

When I raise in this situation, I justify it by telling myself I am trying to eliminate players. Is raising late to get the button and/or drive out the blinds a valid move? Obviously your read on the players left to act is quite critical.


TIA,
 
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Wed Oct 30, 2002, 06:44 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
I agree with Barry on this point. Let me just add this to justify calling in late position with several callers already when you hold A,Ko .

When you flop one of your cards you are much more likely to get called down by a player with top pair and a weaker kicker. For example when you find the player with A,Q (with an ace high flop) or K,Q (when the flop is King high) you are likely to get paid all the way to the end even when you raise on the flop.

one final point, when you flop a big hand you might be surprised how much action you get even if you play the hand aggressively. When the flop comes 10,J,Q rainbow and you bet it, you are going to get plenty of action from the limpers that played most 2 big card hands. And when the board comes A,A, x and you have A,J or A,Q or even A,10 out there you are going to win a very nice pot.

I mean, you wouldn't have limped in in late position with A,Ko would you?

Deception I think is a word that fits nicely into this scenario.

Mark
p.s . welcome on board Barry.
 
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AKo in multiway pots - Wed Oct 30, 2002, 09:51 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
[quote="TrumpinJoe"]Very good points.

When I raise in this situation, I justify it by telling myself I am trying to eliminate players. Is raising late to get the button and/or drive out the blinds a valid move? Obviously your read on the players left to act is quite critical.

Yes, as aways everything "depends." I try in my posts, articles and lessons to help people understand what it depends on.

In the case of raising a number of limpers with AKo trying to eliminate blinds: In myexperience, once 5 or 6 players are in, a single raise doeas little to discourage the blinds. They think "big pot" and throw their chips into what is quickly becoming a slightly biassed lottery.

If your blinds will fold often in this scenario, though, a raise can be more easily justified.

As to "buying the button" I will agree that rasing in the cutoff has more validity than raising from the button. But still don't do it because I think the reasons I gave dominate.

BarryT
(and thanks for the kind words from those that wrote them)
 
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Re: AKo in multiway pots - Wed Oct 30, 2002, 11:46 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryT
1. In a multi-way pot, large unsuited connectors go down in value. They may be high on some chart, but their relative playing strength goes down. With high unsuited connectors, you are trying to make one pair/big kicker and have it hold up. In a multiway pot one pair does not win ofen enough to justify the pre-flop raise.
I thought in a mutliway pot, you were trying to pick up straight draws and then take the pot odds to draw to your straight with your connectors, suited or not...
 
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AKo in multiway pots - Thu Oct 31, 2002, 07:55 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
AK does not flop open end straight draws. Neither does KQ. I will be discussing this topic in my lessons shortly, but since these hands do not flop striaght draws, the fact that straight draws play better in multiway pots does not come into consideration.

BarryT
 
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Thu Oct 31, 2002, 08:09 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Barry,

I agree with your points, but KQ does flop straight draws and open enders -- JTx

Dan
 
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AKo in multiway pots - Fri Nov 01, 2002, 02:31 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
Yes, it does, and I should have been more specific. While KQ has only one way to flop a real straight draw, a hand like 98 can flop JT, T7 or 76. This is the effect most people are searching for when they discuss connectors.

However, I was inacurate and I apologize.

BarryT
 
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To Wiscer re AKo - Mon Nov 04, 2002, 07:22 PM
(#11)
Deleted user
Wiscer wrote:
I thought in a mutliway pot, you were trying to pick up straight draws and then take the pot odds to draw to your straight with your connectors, suited or not...


Wiscer,

Your post got me to thinking about the odds against making a straight with this hand. I thought you might find the results interesting. Usually I go to Mike Petriv’s “Holdem Odds Book” with this kind of question, but he provides odds only for what he refers to as maximum stretch hands (JT through 54). So I did my own calculating. Keep in mind that I’m not a mathematician, so these figures could be wrong.

With AK the odds against flopping a straight are 304:1.
Odds against flopping a gutshot straight straight draw are 7.5:1.
Odds against hitting your gutshot draw with two cards to come are 5.1:1.
Odds against making a straight by the river (excluding runner-runner) are 49.3:1.

Some of the flops that give you a gutshot draw also provide opponents with flushes, fullhouses, or draws to them.

Remember, these figures are not guaranteed. If anyone sees some errors please let me know.

EPS
 

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