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Showdown?

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Showdown? - Tue Oct 29, 2002, 12:32 AM
(#1)
Deleted user
Two players still in on the river and early position player bets and button calls. Better says he has nothing and button shows a pair. I demand to see the bettors cards but they tell me he doesn't have to show since I wasn't in the hand. Floor says he only has to show if the button ask. I thought if you were first to bet then you are suppose to show but they sure don't do that here in these low limit California games. Is the showdown rule different from place to place?
 
Old
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Tue Oct 29, 2002, 12:46 AM
(#2)
Deleted user
I never ask to see another person's hand, but in the bay area where I mostly play, I've seen other players ask to see a players hand and have their request accomodated. Perhaps it is just in this specific cardroom where player(s) involved are the only ones able to request to see the other player's hand. IMO, i think this it is horrible poker etiquette to ask to see another player's hand unless you suspect there is some collusion going on, which is doubtful in a low limit game here in California...later, the jam has been spread....

dan
 
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Re: Showdown? - Tue Oct 29, 2002, 12:50 AM
(#3)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofi
Two players still in on the river and early position player bets and button calls. Better says he has nothing and button shows a pair. I demand to see the bettors cards but they tell me he doesn't have to show since I wasn't in the hand. Floor says he only has to show if the button ask. I thought if you were first to bet then you are suppose to show but they sure don't do that here in these low limit California games.
Quote:
Is the showdown rule different from place to place?
Yes. Don't waste any more energy worrying about this.
I'm guessing that the subtle message you were supposed
to get was, "Quit being a little snot." (Hey, I'M not saying it!)
 
Old
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Tue Oct 29, 2002, 03:35 AM
(#4)
Deleted user
In all the poker rooms that I know of in Mississippi, any one at the table can ask to see a "called" hand.
Personally, I don't think it's bad ediquette to ask to see a hand. I do on occassion, to see if my read on the player is accurate. Sometimes players who are "steamed" at a particular player will ask to see their hand(s)...in this context, it doesn't come off very well.
8O


'Goddess
 
Old
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Tue Oct 29, 2002, 05:34 AM
(#5)
Deleted user
if the players are not sowing, the better is required to show first. As long as the bet is called anyone at the table may ask to see the cards, if the bet is not called, the better is not required to show is cards UNLESS he shows another player at the table then someone may ask to see them.


at least this is my understanding.
 
Old
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Tue Oct 29, 2002, 04:04 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
Most places... anyone at the table has the right to see a called hand at the showdown. This rule was designed to stop collusion ...and IMO to use it for any other reason is bad ettiqutte (to get a read on or see how someone plays or even to put someone on tilt). Ive seen many a fight break out because of people abusing this rule and personally think it should be thrown out.

AZ
 
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Wed Oct 30, 2002, 06:16 AM
(#7)
Deleted user
something has occured to me while thinking of this post. maybe i should post my quetion in the software section, but anyway....


if i have "muck losing hand" marked, and i call, i believe my hand doesn't show, however, since the rule (i believe it is a rule) that in a called hand the better (or raiser) is obligated to show hand 1st. does the hand show if it is a loser?
 
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Wed Oct 30, 2002, 10:48 AM
(#8)
Deleted user
Quote:
Personally, I don't think it's bad ediquette to ask to see a hand. I do on occassion, to see if my read on the player is accurate.
Completely disagree.

While I agree that a called hand should always be shown, I don't think it's ethical to ask to see hands so you can "get a read" (I know, you said "see if my read was correct" - but it's the same thing).

If that's ethical, then you're saying I could sit down at a table in your casino and ask to see every single hand. In fact, one would be an idiot not asking to see every hand. If you can get all that free information and it's completely legal in your card room, why only ask occasionally?
 
Old
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Wed Oct 30, 2002, 12:47 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
I ask only occassionally, because I don't need to see every hand. A lot are shown because there is a showdown, some are shown voluntarily, and if you pay attention, lots of times the player tells his "neighbor" what he had just after the hand. Additionally, if it's a "loosey goosey" player, I've probably seen enough to know where they are most of the time, without pushing the issue of seeing all of their hands. 8)
Yes, I am saying that you could sit down at a table in the casino I work/play in and ask to see every hand that is called. How is it unethical to get information that is available, when the rules clearly state that any player can see a "called" hand? :?
Personally, I never mind if someone asks to see my hand, at the end. I either have the best of it, or I've made the best play, so I have no problem showing that.
And, it does happen, that a player who has been raised off a hand many times by the same player, for the first player to ask to see EVERY hand that the second player raises with....tilt factor. 8O
I don't think this is an unusual rule and in fact is used in lots of cardrooms.


'Goddess
 
Old
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Wed Oct 30, 2002, 01:01 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by minpin
While I agree that a called hand should always be shown
Quote:
Originally Posted by goddess
I work/play in and ask to see every hand that is called. How is it unethical to get information that is available, when the rules clearly state that any player can see a "called" hand?
Argh... I thought I was clear. Of course a called hand should always be shown.

What was being discussed (as far as I can tell), is that you can ask to see ANY hand, even the hand of someone who folds on the river.

River card comes: Player A bets, B raises, C reraises, A calls, B folds.

Anybody at the table can ask to see B's cards because the play was suspicious (looks like collusion), even though he folded. When you made the statement:

Quote:
Personally, I don't think it's bad ediquette to ask to see a hand. I do on occassion, to see if my read on the player is accurate.
I took it as you asking to see hands to get information, no matter how they played out.

I guess I'm confused about the "everyone has the right to see a called hand"... um... if you're called your hand is shown - how else can you win the pot? Player A bets, player B calls. Player A shows the called hand. Right?!

I guess there may be players who will call and then flip their cards before player A has a chance to - that just seems stupid to me, almost as bad as acting out of turn. If player A tosses cards into the muck at that point... I'd blame player B more than A for the lack of showing down the hand.
 
Old
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Wed Oct 30, 2002, 02:26 PM
(#11)
Deleted user
Technically, yes you could ask to see every called hand at the showdown but this would be a horrible waste of time and a lot of people would be pissed off or embarressed (so games would be worse--Caro believes that games are better when everyone is happy and having fun) It is one of those things that shouldn't be in the rule book but most people, especially in higher limit games, don't take advantage of ie.. like not calling string raises.. because they show a little class and respect for their peers. If everyone took advantage and used this rule for the wrong reasons I think casinos/cardrooms would do the right thing and dump it.

AZ
 
Old
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Wed Oct 30, 2002, 02:39 PM
(#12)
Deleted user
Which was my point AZ... and why I was so surprised that someone in poker (a dealer no less!) would admit to asking to see hands just to "get information" about someone's play.

I'd be more than a little upset if someone asked to see my hand (if I was not the person who bet) and when I inquire as to why they want to see my hand they say "I just want to get some information about how you play".
 
Old
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Thu Oct 31, 2002, 12:00 AM
(#13)
Deleted user
OK...let me make this as simple as possible....Player A, and Player B. are the only two left in the hand. On the river...Player A bets...player B calls the bet....Player A is required to show their hand...as they are the one who was called. Player B..now looks at his cards, sees that he is beat, and mucks them face down to the dealer...Anyone at the table can request that the dealer show the cards that Player B mucked. The dealer then "kills" the hand, by touching it to the muck pille, and turns the cards face up for the table to view. You cannot see the hand of every player who may have folded before the showdown, but if the bettor is also the winner, and the caller does not show their hand, you can ask to see the hand.

You can be as upset as you like, but that's the way the rule stands. If I want to see your two cards, and you were in the hand at showdown...I am allowed to see your cards. Why would this be taboo because I am a "dealer, no less"? As a player, I have the same rights as every other player and if a situation arises that makes me curious enough about what the player called with, then I can ask to see the hand....and I don't have to give you a reason why I want to see it. The only reason I can think of that you would object to it, would be that you couldn't justity (although you're not required to) being in the hand at the end.

AZ,
If your high limit players show respect for their peers by not calling string raises and/or not asking to see hands, then you're dealing to a different breed than I am. The higher the limit, the more "technical" they get. They want every lil thing called and will request a floor decision over the smallest infraction. The only respect they have is for the person who they are afraid of taking all their chips.



'Goddess


'Goddess
 
Old
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Thu Oct 31, 2002, 09:09 AM
(#14)
Deleted user
pg... let me ask you this:

If Player B says "why do you want to see my cards?" would your answer be "I just want to get some information on your play".
 
Old
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Thu Oct 31, 2002, 09:40 AM
(#15)
Deleted user
Minpin, where do you get ANYWHERE in this thread that the discussion is about asking to see ANY hand? If it's IN THE RULES that I can see a hand,,, I would have NO problem stating that my reason to see it was to get info!! If it upsets the other player or players at the table,,,oh, well!! It wouldn't be the 1st time I upset someone, and it won't be the last! Sometimes I get the feeling that you enjoy trying to force your opinions onto others, rather than just "agreeing to disagree". Love playing against ya,,,love the work you do at PSO,,,just get a little annoyed at your overbearing attitude, sometimes!
 
Old
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Thu Oct 31, 2002, 09:50 AM
(#16)
Deleted user
Bob,

I tend to look at the "worst case scenario"... because in reality if there is a rule for people to take advantage of, someone will eventually take advantage of it.

I'm not trying to force my opinion on others, I'm just stating my opinion. In this case I don't think there is a valid argument against what I'm saying.

The card rooms implemented this rule specifically to prevent collusion. Pokergoddess should know that, being a dealer (hence my comment). The rule is NOT put into place so you can gleen information about another player's strategy whenever you feel like it.

My argument was about the ethics of asking to see a hand when you are just trying to get information and you don't suspect collusion. Asking to see a hand is basically an accusation of collusion and most folks will take offense at such an accusation... and they will be further angered if in fact you don't suspect collusion but are just trying to get a better read on their play!

Again, totally unethical in my opinion... and something I would never do at a poker table.
 
Old
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Thu Oct 31, 2002, 10:20 AM
(#17)
Deleted user
How can ANTHING within the rules of the game be considered "unethical"? Isn't poker a game of deception and information? Is it unethical to LIE,,,and try to bluff an opponent out of a pot? Some would say yes. Some consider the whole idea of gambling to be unethical. Rules are there for a reason (although I have no idea where you get your info that this specific rule was put into effect by cardrooms to avoid collusion), and I have NO problem exploiting ANY rule to my advantage. And if it upsets others, that's OK with me! Maybe they'll come off of their "A game" and give me more of an advantage!
 
Old
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Thu Oct 31, 2002, 11:38 AM
(#18)
Deleted user
Quote:
although I have no idea where you get your info that this specific rule was put into effect by cardrooms to avoid collusion
Well, in every piece of literature I've ever read on the subject this is the reason given for the rule.

Why, do you imagine, is this type of rule in place if not to help determine whether collusion has occurred?
 
Old
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Thu Oct 31, 2002, 01:15 PM
(#19)
Deleted user
Well Bob,

If every player exploited this rule, I guarantee poker rooms would get rid of it. Many times i've seen it where a player asks to see another players losing hand at the showdown, this player gets pissed off and wings his cards(sometimes at or towards the player who asked to see cards and tells the guy that he can shove the cards up is asss )and now he wants to see every hand that this person calls on the end from now on. Then he tells the next dealer that he wants to see this persons cards every legal chance he gets. Now the other person will say I wanna see his hand also whenever I can. Now the whole table is pissed off and going along at a snails pace because the dealer is turning up all these hands at the showdown. While you are exploiting this rule you might as well keep skipping out of the blinds and changing seats to save some money(at least in lower limit games no rule against that).

Goddess: I just don't see too many things taken advantage of in our casino(high limit especially), people generally treat each other with respect and try to keep games friendly. If your players aren't like this and take advantage of every little thing and slow games to a crawl and piss off each other... I am glad i don't deal there.. ive got it pretty good.

AZ
 
Old
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Thu Oct 31, 2002, 02:11 PM
(#20)
Deleted user
Minpin,
I normally don't give a reason, as I don't find it necessary to explain...but, if I did, I mite say, "because I wanted to see what you called with, or what you raised with, or because I think your so cute" Actually, I don't recall anyone ever asking why.
I have had people ask me, as the dealer, why I was showing their mucked hand, and have explained that a player requested to see it, and it is their right to do so.


'Goddess
 

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