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Short Stack All-in Not Called

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Short Stack All-in Not Called - Sat Nov 02, 2002, 09:00 AM
(#1)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
To those of you that watched the final table of Friday's 7 pm $200 NLHE event:

As I arrived at the final table miraculously with never having a decent stack. When it got down to 12 players, I decided to only play premium hands until I got into the money as I was 9th largest stack and the event paid 9.

After I survived to be in the money, I played a few hands and all of them were all-ins with decent cards for my stack size and position. Yet players that had me out chipped 20:1 never called! I am highly appreciative, but somewhat perplexed. Did anyone else take note of the seemingly passive play at that final table.

Due to a slow dial-up connection I chose not to listen to Freddie's broadcast.

Wasn't that a great play by RCMorea when they got rockets when we were heads-up? Congrats on the win :!:
 
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Sat Nov 02, 2002, 09:13 AM
(#2)
Deleted user
TJ
I wasn't in that tourney, but I sure know what you are talking about..
I have seen it over and over...the big stack folding and letting the blind have the antes/little blind, and the all-in little stacks go unchallenged. ( I notice that seldom happens when I am up against the big stack :mrgreen: )

When I first started playing tourneys in real casinos. the other players would almost ask for a player's head if they didn't attempt to bust the all-in little stacks. It is OUR MISSION!! HOWEVER....I am not sure where that line in the sand is drawn...cause should I have just TOTAL CRAPOLA, and call just because I am the "big dog", there is the chance of doubling up that all-in player...and sometimes, that comes back to haunt...

SO it is a real catch-22.

Any suggestions would be appreciated...The confusion also goes the other way for me....I frequently find myself at the final table, needing to increase my stack or I will be eliminated...and afraid to go all-in BECAUSE of the big stacks...If I try to pick up some blinds/antes, and go all-in with what I might normally NOT play, there is the chance I will be called and even eliminated ...

Thanks in advance..
 
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Sat Nov 02, 2002, 09:49 AM
(#3)
Deleted user
JOE,

I believe wstwst commented on these situtions on the broadcast especially the slow play of the aa, good finish and good start to the month
 
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Sat Nov 02, 2002, 10:50 AM
(#4)
Deleted user
people often say that u got odds to call a short stack, and yesterday i had also listen to me saying that "it is your duty to call" ???

well..i found yesterday on round 2 that because i was the biggest stack on the table, i was screwing my stack calling the short stack all in's...situations were i did had A2 sooted to call a 5k to a 40k pot

useless to say i stop doing that cause my hands were craked by 74o, KK and A9o..stuff like that and after a while it cost me like 40 or 50k to call those hands

i really believe that, depending on the field, you should wait for better opportunities

spades 8)
 
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Sat Nov 02, 2002, 11:21 AM
(#5)
Deleted user
hey joe, if i would have had one of the big stacks, trust me, i would have called with any decent holding. i noticed tthe passive play by the big stacks also, but i was shortstacked myself so i could not do anything until i caught a hand. but i thought it was a great final table. the one thing that made it extremely tough was, all the people there play an awesome game of poker. also, the bets people were bringing in were either all in, or extremely large. it makes it difficult to call with a mediocre holding. when you call, you only have one way to win, and that is to have your hand hold up. but when you are raising, you have 2 ways to win, because the other player can fold. so keep raising, and enjoy building that short stack if they let you. congrats on a good finish, cya at the tables,

jmuzzey lsogc
 
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Sat Nov 02, 2002, 12:25 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
Don't care what anyone says:

If I am chip leader, it's my perogative to call all-ins with less then top notch cards, not my job.

muck it
 
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Sat Nov 02, 2002, 04:29 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
not sure if my play is ever called passive but i wont call a raise if the pot is not offering me the correct odds
if i am not even getting 2-1 odds on an all in raise when i had rag rag then i am folding the rags unless i have 50% of the table chips with more than 6 players left on the table. even then i might just let the others fight it out knowing i will be in a healthly postion heads up.
 
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Sat Nov 02, 2002, 04:33 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Don't think about using your big stack to call the short-stacked all-ins in order to eliminate them. Think in terms of pot odds. Call if you have the pot odds to call against the all-ins range of hands. Remember that a short-stack is desperate, often shoving all-in on a prayer, so a typical player could have a wide range of hands.

Getting 3-1 you should call with any 2 cards. Getting 2-1 and you should call with a very wide range of hands. Not only because of the odds, but also because with these odds against a typical all-in, you could be against anything.

A common arguament I hear is that I am not calling and doubling them up. Well, the fact is that you double them up when you are getting the odds but still fold. Think about it.
 
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Sat Nov 02, 2002, 04:54 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
wowowowowowoowowowoowo


i said 2-1 before noodles hey i must be learning
 
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Sat Nov 02, 2002, 06:27 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
Joe, I have seen players in the BB fold when all they had to do to call the all in was use 1/20th of their stack.

You gotta love these players at your table--if you are the all in.


Randy
 
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Sun Nov 03, 2002, 07:23 AM
(#11)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Iron or Noodles,

What is the range of hands you would call with if you had ~2:1 odds from the all-in?
 
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Another View - Mon Nov 04, 2002, 12:32 PM
(#12)
Deleted user
The only player I'm obliged to put out of the tournament is the second place finisher!!

Nevertheless, I've seen frequent weird laydowns by decent stacks all the time. You know - $100 antes, a $4-5,000 pot, an all-in for $1,000 more - giving you 6 to 1 on the call head's up???

Gentlemen - Ladies, there are NO two starting cards in Hold'em worse than 6:1!
- even AA vs. 72o is maybe 85% (about 5.5:1).
- most hands are much lower odds!

How can you not call? Fair warning: if I can get 3 or 4:1, head's up with an all-in who can't hurt me further;
- when I can call with 7 9os , hit 6 J and get to the river for free!!!!
- for me it's an "auto-call" with a decent stack size!

That having been said, it's not my job at the table to educate anyone else! If they want to make those laydowns, which only encourages other short stacks to make also try "all-in" bets - that's fine!

Just a contrary opinion.
 
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Mon Nov 04, 2002, 01:18 PM
(#13)
Deleted user
joe it all depends on my stack size and stage of tourny but i'll call a all in raise when i have 2-1 odds and no future risk to my chips in the hands with as little as JTo

the better the odds i am getting the less i need to call

if i am tourny chip leader with a large lead i could call an all in raise offereing me 2-1 with as little as 23o
 
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Mon Nov 04, 2002, 01:21 PM
(#14)
Deleted user
howabout QQ v Q2 etc
i think u r over 18-1 dog there but i get your point
 
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Mon Nov 04, 2002, 02:57 PM
(#15)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
In reviewing data from Pct of Pots Won it appears that a short stack in the SB, if they cannot make more than a pot sized raise could be getting the correct odds to move all-in with ANY holding in an uncontested pot.

On the button the range of hands giving the correct odds for a pot-sized all-in is HUGE in an uncontested pot.
 
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Mon Nov 04, 2002, 04:23 PM
(#16)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe
Iron or Noodles,

What is the range of hands you would call with if you had ~2:1 odds from the all-in?
I usually call against most opponents:

Mainly hands that rate to be either ahead or less than 2-1 dog against a desperate all-in player.

Suited connected type hands
Any pair
Suited aces- probably all the way down to A2s
2 highish offsuit cards, KJ, QT, etc
Probably 2 connected offsuit cards such as 67. heck, even a hand like 69o is getting teh odds against a hand like AKs or 55.
A decent ace offsuit such as A6o. A2o may even be correct due to the range of hands a desperate typical all-in player will make a move with.
I may be missing some.

All the above rate to be either the favourite or likely to be a 3-2 dog if they are behind. A2s if against a bigger ace or pp will not be getting the odds but only by a fraction. With the added chance of being the 3-2 favourite some times, then the odds are more than enough to gamble. A2o will be not be getting the odds if against a better ace or pair. But calling would still be correct a lot of the time against a typical opponent in most situations when getting 2-1 on the all-in, as it will still beat a lot of hands a desperate player will move in with.

I would fold trash like J6o but probably call if suited. If it either has flush or straight potential or both, then it is probably worth a call. If not, then it is probably a fold. If it is has a chance to be 2 overcards when agaainst a pair, then it's a call etc.

All the above include when the raiser was UTG. I would probably have a wider range of hands if the player was in late position. If they were the SB I would call with virtually anything.

Obviously, there are always exceptions.
 
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 12:03 PM
(#17)
Deleted user
I apologise. I haven't taken the game seriously lately as I haven't played that often. I think my thinking in this area may have got a bit slack/flawed. Thinking about it some more, I think some of the recommendations are a bit loose depending on the exact situation. Mainly relating to how some of the hands play when they run into medium pairs.
 
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 06:51 PM
(#18)
Deleted user
well Noodles i consider other important aspects as:

- the remaning players on the tournament
- paying seats
- other stacks on table
- how my stack is after (considering that i lost after that call) ..will i remain the big stack or not

the situation that i describe when i reply to the original post here is:

- wpo round 1 - 15 seats qualify
- 17 players remain
- i am biggest stack at my table (maybe 2nd or 3rd ou tournament)
- the gap to 2nd biggest stack on my table is around 20k
- if i lost 2 or 3 calls like that i will be 2nd or 3rd stack on my table

(there is something on my head....consider i will get AA/KK and maybe QQ next hand..i raise and got reraised and i may need to move all in...that is not the 1st time that i got out on the bubble playing those hands to bigger stacks...after 3 hours of play and 2 seats away from my goal i will get very very carefull)

not trying to teach the mass to the priest/pope but those aspects are important for me

spades 8)
 

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