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The truth about bankroll

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The truth about bankroll - Mon Jan 31, 2011, 12:31 AM
(#1)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
A lot of bad posting and missed ideas going around this forum, time to clear up, once and for all and define what is bankroll and with what dressing it tastes best.

Wossit bankroll
It's your poker wallet, amount of money that is there for playing poker and not buying shish kebabsor wedding rings. If you are starting - your first deposit is going to be your bankroll for most part.

What is the reason behind it ?
Reason behind bankroll is very simple - to counter swings. Nothing else. It's not there to reduce your losses, not there to "guide you through poker", limit amount of tables you can play or whatever else. Poker is a gambling game where every move got an EV which means that some of the time you will lose even when you are ahead by a lot and proper bankroll will allow you to survive through the swings.

So what my bankroll should be like ?
This depends on:
1. How good you are
2. How tought is the limit
3. Type of the game you want to beat.

There are no real cookbook recipes for BRM (just like with anything else in poker) but the general guidelines go like this:

MTT:
100BI< (means that if you are playing 1$ multi table tournaments you should have bankroll of at least 100$)

SNG:
30BI< (means that if you are playing 1$ 9-man sng you should have bankroll of at least 30$)

NL cash tables (full ring):
25BI< (means that if you are playing 0.05/0.1$ and you buy-in for full amount (10$ which you should do) you should have at least 250$ in your bankroll)

FL cash tables (full ring):
500BB< (means that if you are playing 0.05/0.1$ fixed limit game you should have at least 50$ in your bankroll)

If your game was not mentioned here, it is not intended for you (as you need this article).

Going down and up
You are learning, you will make many mistakes and eventually have to downgrade. You should do that when your bankroll dropped to 125% required for lower level (so let's say that you moved to 2$ MTTs with 200$ in your bankroll, if that drops to 125$, you should go back to 1$ MTTs).

As for going up, you should take a shot at higher level when you got 125% of required bankroll for said level (so in order to advance from 1$ MTTs to 2$ mtts, you should have 250 in your bankroll).

Why that 25% overhead ? In case of going up - to give you more breathing space when you adapat to new limit. When going down - to counter possible tilt.



That's it folks, mystery solved.
 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 02:10 AM
(#2)
jonesse52's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 66
I am surprised you did not say to drop down a level when your bankroll falls below 100% of that required for your current level.

Also, I have been using 500 big blinds (bb) as a bankroll requirement guideline for FL cash tables (full ring), but it might be a good idea to double this to 500 big bets (BB).
 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 02:12 AM
(#3)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
500big blinds is horrible brm and wont last mediocre swing, big bets on the other hand...

Dropping when you fall below 100% is retarded for typical BRM and would get you stuck on level below for long time. There is roll strategy that involves this type of move (sorta) called "shots" but it's utilized at higher stakes and it's pretty much a MUST from nl100. But till then, you will figure it out (if you ever get that high)
 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 08:38 AM
(#4)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
** Moved **
 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 10:25 AM
(#5)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
................Dropping when you fall below 100% is retarded for typical BRM .................................................. ............................ But till then, you will figure it out (if you ever get that high)

Dam, you're back, wish you would of stayed away
Here you are lowering everybody that asks or passes a comment again
You definitely have no class and sure are Egocentric

 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 11:13 AM
(#6)
jonesse52's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
500big blinds is horrible brm and wont last mediocre swing, big bets on the other hand...

Dropping when you fall below 100% is retarded for typical BRM and would get you stuck on level below for long time. There is roll strategy that involves this type of move (sorta) called "shots" but it's utilized at higher stakes and it's pretty much a MUST from nl100. But till then, you will figure it out (if you ever get that high)
Thanks, Puciek. I certainly get my fair share of swings, if not more. I am changing my BRM requirement guideline for FL cash tables (full ring) to 500 BB.

I guess dropping when you fall below 100% does not allow enough room for swings. I need to learn more about that.
 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 11:54 AM
(#7)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
You definitely have no class and sure are Egocentric
I have that on my business card so your point being ?
 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 01:17 PM
(#8)
jonesse52's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 66
I created a spreadsheet for FL cash tables (full ring). I am thinking about changing the move down rule to something like 25% below the bankroll requirement for your current stakes, to allow enough room for swings, but not too much room.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CIH069ED
 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 02:01 PM
(#9)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Riiight, you are free to do whatever you want, i won't bother to convince idiots why i am right
 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 05:49 PM
(#10)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
BronzeStar
Now this is more informative, but the auditor in me just has to do some number crunching here. The one thing I found missing is the fee portion for the tournaments. That is a real cost that should be factored into your calculations. So let me address each segment and go on from there.

MTT
Now these games can include the turbos and hyperturbos, if that is your style. 100 times the buy-in. So based on the lobby, here are some numbers to consider:

under $1 - primarily turbo and hyperturbo
55-cents = $55.00

$1 - fees can range from 10-cents to 75-cents (knockouts)
1.75 = $175

$2 - fees 20-cents
$2.20 = $220

$3 - fees 40-cents
$3.40 = $340

SNG

$1 - fees can range from 10-cents to 75-cents (knockouts)
1.75 = $175

$3 - fees range between 25-cents to 40-cents
$3.40 = $340

$4 - fee of 10-cents
$4.10 = $410

$5 - fees up to 50-cents
$5.50 = $550

NL
Based on the maximum mentioned. The most one can take to the table is 100 times the big blind. This might not be universal, but for the sake of simplicity, I'll use that criteria.

02-cent = $20
04-cent = $40
05-cent = $50
08-cent = $80
10-cent = $100

FL
Of all the calculations, this one is the easiest.

02-cent = $10
04-cent = $20
05-cent = $25
08-cent = $40
10-cent = $50

So now that we have these numbers, what do we do with them? According to the bankroll management, you go up at 125% of the next level, and drop to the lower limit if you go below that percentage of the next lower level. So again I'll do some number crunching:

MTT

55-cents = $55 (nothing lower) $218.75
$1 = $175 range = $068.76 - $425.00
$3 = $340 range = $218.76 - $512.50
$4 = $410 range = $425.01 - $843.75

SNG

$1 = $175 (nothing lower) $275.00
$2 = $220 range = $218.76 - $425.00
$3 = $340 range = $275.01 - $512.50
$4 = $410 range = $425.01 - $687.50
$5 = $550 range = $512.51 - $843.75

NL

02-cent = $20 (nothing lower) $50.00
04-cent = $40 range = $25.01 - $62.50
05-cent = $50 range = $50.01 - $100.00
08-cent = $80 range = $62.51 - $125.00
10-cent = $100 range = $125.01 - $250.00

FL

02-cent = $10 (nothing lower) $25.00
04-cent = $20 range = $12.51 - $31.25
05-cent = $25 range = $25.01 - $50.00
08-cent = $40 range = $31.26 - $62.50
10-cent = $50 range = $50.01 - $125.00


Summary

So how does one read these tables?

MTT:
To play at the $1.00 tables, you will need a $175 initial bankroll. If you have a downturn of fortunes, consider going to the penny games if you fall below $68.76; if you are successfull, move up to the $3.00 tables when you have at least $425.

SNG:
To play at the $2.00 tables, you need $220 as a bankroll. Falling below $218.76 means stepping down to the $1.00 tables. The range is that small since the $1.00 games range in cost from $1.10 to $1.75, depending on the game. Realistically, step down at $137.50 mark. Move up to the $3.00 when you have a $425 bankroll.

NL:
You will need $40 to play at the 4-cent BB games. If your bankroll falls below $25.01, move down to the 2-cent BB games. If you have a positive run, move up to the 5-cent BB games when you have $31.25 in your bankroll.

FL:
A 4-cent game requires a minimum $20 bankroll. Consider moving down to the 2-cent game if you fall below $12.51, and move up to the 5-cent game if you amass more than $31.25 in your bankroll.




As noted in the earlier post, the idea of bank management is to "to counter swings." In this we both agree, though our wording may differ. One does not try to counter upswings, so the reason is related to losses. Bankroll management gives the savy player a means of surviving those normal downturns without losing everything. We say the same thing, but with different words. To quote: "Proper bankroll will allow you to survive through the swings."

It does not dictate how many games one plays at a time, or the number of tables. Those are up to the individual player. In the same way, these breakdowns as to when a person moves up or down are a guide.
 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 06:12 PM
(#11)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
tbfh with you: tl;dr after you started with "rake should be included in brm". 10% in brm difference DOESNT MATTER. This only shows that you do not understand BRM concept, nothing else.

Read my original post over and over till you get it (and then you will understand that this numbers are 25BI not 10bi for a reason)

Last edited by Puciek; Mon Jan 31, 2011 at 06:15 PM..
 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 07:58 PM
(#12)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
tbfh with you: tl;dr after you started with "rake should be included in brm". 10% in brm difference DOESNT MATTER. This only shows that you do not understand BRM concept, nothing else.

Read my original post over and over till you get it (and then you will understand that this numbers are 25BI not 10bi for a reason)


Sounds like the argument I had with our economist at work. For some inexplicable reason, they considered all fixed costs as a non-factor in calculating profit. They kept telling me that if price equals variable costs, you have a profit. That comes nowhere close to a breakeven situation, which is what the accountant is calculating. Made no sense to me what the economist thought so obvious.

Same here. If your bankroll is, as you defined, 100 times the $1 buy-in, you will have $100. However, games on this site, as well as in casinos, have a fee. If one goes with the cheapest fee, the total cost to play that $1 tournament will be $1.10. A bankroll of $100 allows one to play 90 games.

If the purpose of the bankroll amount is to allow a player the opportunity of playing in 100 games, then you need to include the fees. If bankroll management ignores such fees, then the number of games could vary from a high of 90, ($100 divided by $1.10), to a low of 57, ($100 divided by $1.75).

So the question I have to ask is which way do you go for bankroll management? Do you consider the known costs for MTT and SNG games when calculating the necessary bankroll for a particular game level? What is the reasoning behind ignoring such known factors?
 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 08:27 PM
(#13)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
I know, it's impossible that the economist just knows a lot more and is too lazy to explain it to everyone who have red "the green book" and think that they are economy gods random-concepts. It's easier to just ignore them.
 
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Mon Jan 31, 2011, 11:39 PM
(#14)
Cyis's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 193
BronzeStar
I noticed both of our calculations for BRM are only looking at MTT, SNG, NL and FL... so what do you consider generally good BRM when playing PL? I've actually found PLO8 to be more lucrative for me than NLHE but have stayed at the levels I'm at as I haven't found any good sound advice on when to make the move up or down.
 
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Tue Feb 01, 2011, 07:04 AM
(#15)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
No real difference in swings between PL and NL
BUT
swings differenct between omaha and holdem (+ a lot bigger learning curve) tend me to lean toward more conservative BRM, around 35-40BI and really you should NOT start with PLO. Yes, it is more fishy but you are not good enough to exploit this anyway and you will make way too many mistakes.

Last edited by Puciek; Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 07:14 AM..
 
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Tue Feb 01, 2011, 06:25 PM
(#16)
Cyis's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 193
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
No real difference in swings between PL and NL
BUT
swings differenct between omaha and holdem (+ a lot bigger learning curve) tend me to lean toward more conservative BRM, around 35-40BI and really you should NOT start with PLO. Yes, it is more fishy but you are not good enough to exploit this anyway and you will make way too many mistakes.
I'm not playing PLO... I'm playing PLO8... I've been holding my own pretty good on the PLO8 tables, playing 3-5 tables at a time with a 100bb buy-in where the buy-in is < 10% of my bankroll.

The funny thing for me was I only picked up PLO8 this past week during the WBCOOP. I failed to qualify in the first NLHE qualifier on Tues so I read the section on Omaha H/L in SSII and played the qualifier on Wed night as I wasn't going to be able to play the Thurs afternoon NLHE qualifier. I've played NLHE for the past 5 years and PLO8 for a week and find I'm doing better at it.
 
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Tue Feb 01, 2011, 06:27 PM
(#17)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
So you are playing PLO HI LO which is even harder and got even more variation. You are a bad player, learn some basics of NLHE and then come back.

But then again you are free to dump your money wherever you please, i dont really care

Last edited by Puciek; Tue Feb 01, 2011 at 06:29 PM..
 
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Tue Feb 01, 2011, 07:07 PM
(#18)
Cyis's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 193
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
So you are playing PLO HI LO which is even harder and got even more variation. You are a bad player, learn some basics of NLHE and then come back.

But then again you are free to dump your money wherever you please, i dont really care
Puciek,

I never realized before just how much of a elitist poker snob you are until now with comments like that... I'm curious how you came to your conclusion that I'm a bad player? In PSO tourneys you're best finish isn't any better than mine. I see you didn't compete in the WBCOOP yet I played 50th out of 483 playing in my first PLO8 tourney, and 306th out of 720 & 158th out of 810 in the NLHE tournaments. All I see from you is a bare attempt to make just enough points in the league to qualify for the monthly, I attempted more PSO tourneys last month alone than you have in 3 months and if I'd stopped and played it safe after the 9th I'd have finished the month higher than you.

So how did you come to this rash conclusion again?
 
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Tue Feb 01, 2011, 07:12 PM
(#19)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Just 2 hands you posted and 1 comment in HA forum section was more than enough for me to peg you as a total fish on highway to giving money left and right. You have no understanding of basic poker concepts, not to mention something more advanced.

And yea, i farm for the monthly, the one i don't even play. God damn me. And since you own me so badly, care for 1:1 ? Nl25-50 ~30k hands ? We may play PLO
 
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Tue Feb 01, 2011, 07:18 PM
(#20)
Cyis's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 193
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
Just 2 hands you posted and 1 comment in HA forum section was more than enough for me to peg you as a total fish on highway to giving money left and right. You have no understanding of basic poker concepts, not to mention something more advanced.

And yea, i farm for the monthly, the one i don't even play. God damn me. And since you own me so badly, care for 1:1 ? Nl25-50 ~30k hands ? We may play PLO
Wow, you are quite the analytical mathematician aren't you? 2 HAs is quite a sample to make determinations upon without any of the other over 9K hands I've played. I do hope you work for the IRS Then we'd have this whole national debt analysis and be well on the way to a speedy recovery.

I do hope we run into each other on the tables and you can attempt to prove your point, but as little as you play the odds will be hard of that happening.
 

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