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Was I correct?

 
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Was I correct? - Thu Feb 03, 2011, 04:26 PM
(#1)
met3or's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 11
Okay, so I pull KK and I'm feeling pretty good about the hand, and well, the game below will elaborate more than I.

Details to note, Villian in this game had been seen to bluff on occasions before, so I felt it appropriate to try and take as much from him as I could. But, with the flop revealing nothing really of value to me, was I correct in continuing aggressive play with my hand?


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 0 Tournament, 300/600 Blinds 50 Ante (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) (t6010)
UTG+1 (t2885)
MP1 (t51508)
Villian (MP2) (t32567)
MP3 (t13210)
CO (t24281)
Button (t6270)
SB (t14690)
BB (t14200)

Hero's M: 4.45

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K
Hero calls t600, 2 folds, Villian calls t600, 1 fold, CO calls t600, 1 fold, SB calls t300, BB checks

Flop: (t3450) 2, J, 9 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets t1000, Villian calls t1000, 3 folds

Turn: (t5450) 10 (2 players)
Hero bets t1200, Villian raises to t3600, Hero calls t2400

River: (t12650) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Villian bets t1200, Hero calls t760 (All-In)

Total pot: t14170
 
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Thu Feb 03, 2011, 06:49 PM
(#2)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
Shove preflop and drive out the chasers
 
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Thu Feb 03, 2011, 09:48 PM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I find that whenever I continue with a hand because I think a villain might be bluffing, I get myself in hot water. If I have solid evidence that someone is bluffing, then I'll act accordingly. Here, however, you put yourself in a difficult situation because your opponent might have had a hand, or they might have been bluffing. Either is plausible, but by slowplaying, you didn't acquire the information you needed to make an informed decision about where you stood.

When you slowplay monsters, you need to be prepared to drop them like trash when they're not monsters anymore. Because on a board with three cards to a straight and two flush draws, KK is trash.

Poker is fun.
 
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Thu Feb 03, 2011, 10:04 PM
(#4)
met3or's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 11
Thanks a lot for the replies. I'll definitely take this on board in my future plays
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 09:14 AM
(#5)
DashMN's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 9
WhiteStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by met3or View Post
Okay, so I pull KK and I'm feeling pretty good about the hand, and well, the game below will elaborate more than I.

Details to note, Villian in this game had been seen to bluff on occasions before, so I felt it appropriate to try and take as much from him as I could. But, with the flop revealing nothing really of value to me, was I correct in continuing aggressive play with my hand?
If you were feeling good about your hand, why not raise pre-flop? See my thread on why limping is a bad idea. And here's a real simple poker philosophy for you: if you don't feel good enough about your hand to raise pre-flop, then you shouldn't be playing it.

Also, you asked if you should continue aggressive play. Your plays were not aggressive. Based on the antes, blinds and callers, the pot should have been t3,450. On the flop, you only bet t1,000 at it - that's not aggressive, that's passive.

I'm guessing that the villain was either suited in diamonds or picked up a gutshot straight draw with that flop. But your t1,000 bet is less than 2BB. If I'm in his shoes, based on your bet, I figure you for middle pair at best, and I make the call, especially if I have overcards. And as one of the big stacks at the table, he can afford to risk the t1,000 that you bet at the flop. Yes, t1,000 is almost 20% of your stack, but then it was also only about 3% of his. Then the turn comes and it helps either the straight or flush draw. Now the pot is at t5,450 and you bet t1,200 - again, not aggressive. If I'm the villain, that doesn't scare me at all, especially as a big stack.

You were the second smallest stack at the table. With 10BB, you had two options - 1) shove pre-flop or 2) bet 4BB pre-flop and shove at the flop, assuming the board isn't too threatening. Limping pre-flop and making weak bets at the flop and turn is a good way to get your kings killed.
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 09:43 AM
(#6)
met3or's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 11
tyvm Dash, that adds a lot of perspective to the match. I think I really need to re-evaluate how I've been playing.
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 05:36 PM
(#7)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Ship it pre. Nothing to discuss here (literally).
 
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Sat Feb 05, 2011, 02:19 AM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
10 BB, you hold a hand that "fears" only 1 hand, the pre-flop pot (just blinds and antes) adds over 20% to your stack, you have a mega short stack who may call to "stand", a big stack who may call to "sheriff"...all that says ship it pre!

Your are UTG, you want "action" to chip up with your "montser" hand, you are likely to just see a lot of weaker hands fold and the one hand you "fear" calling or raising you, you have pretty solid "fold equity" against all but maybe 2 hands at the table with your stack so they may fold to a UTG shove...all those facts argue for a limp, or a raise LESS than all-in.

You limp, and it goes 4 way to the flop.

The flop is semi "wet", with a flush draw and straight draw possibly out there. Only 1 broadway card on the flop lessens the threat you got called by a hand that is now 2 pairs, but there IS an outside chance of a J9. You cannot afford to let "cheap" cards come for any of the draws.

Since the pot is NOW 3450, and since you have 5400 left, picking up well over 50% of your stack now all but DEMANDS a shove. you cannot let this one go farther really, since the draws are there...

While a "tricky" play pre-flop (your limp) is ok with a hand as strong as KK, your 10 BB stack demands that your REAL intention be to get all your chips in ANY time you enter a pot. The bigger the pot grows in relation to the size of your stack, the more REASON you have to take it down right there. 50% is PLENTY to justify a shove, and your KK isno longer strong enough to jsutif any cute-sy "slow play" (like feeding in your chips a little at a time in hopes of inducing calls).

So I do not disagree necssarily with a pre-flop limp, but failing to flop shove after your limp has built the extra value you wanted is pretty foolish in my opinion.
 
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kk,,should i have raised more pre-flop - Sun Feb 06, 2011, 02:29 PM
(#9)
DouglasAD_68's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 26
WhiteStar
removed..my bad

Last edited by DouglasAD_68; Sun Feb 06, 2011 at 02:51 PM..
 

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