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Why does he call?

 
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Why does he call? - Thu Feb 03, 2011, 06:53 PM
(#1)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
So I'm playing the PSO, and there are about 40 people remaining. My stack is pretty small (M<3). I pick up 56 suited in the hijack and the hand is folded around to me. I shove, figuring I still have some fold equity, and a decent shot at a flip if I am called by a hand like 33 or A2. The big stacks all fold, which is good, but then I'm surprised to see the BB call. He only barely covers me. I'm even more surprised to see him turn over Q3 suited. Of course he's ahead and I have pretty close to a flip (55/45) but why would he call and risk a dead stack here? If he loses he's down to just 2 BBs, and effectively out of the tournament. Why does he call? I think my push was the correct play here, and I do have good odds even when he calls, but I don't understand his call. Is it that he's as desperate as me and thinks this Q3 suited is really his best chance to double up?

Thanks for any thoughts.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 0 Tournament, 2000/4000 Blinds 400 Ante (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



CO (t107225)
Button (t63758)
SB (t94488)
BB (t33412)
UTG (t47724)
UTG+1 (t60415)
MP1 (t115654)
oriholic (MP2) (t25493)

oriholic's M: 2.77

Preflop: oriholic is MP2 with 5, 6
3 folds, oriholic bets t25093 (All-In), 3 folds, BB calls t21093

Flop: (t55386) 2, Q, 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t55386) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t55386) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t55386
 
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Thu Feb 03, 2011, 10:02 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
The player had a lot of information at their disposal that might have contributed.

1) They were short stacked, and needed to lower their standards to chip up.
2) You were also short, and would likely be shoving with any two reasonable cards.
3) A Queen is a powerful card. Especially so if nobody has an Ace, King, or pocket pair.
4) Suited cards are suited, therefore they are good and sometimes never lose 80% of the time.
5) Going all-in is fun.

Your opponent could have been thinking any of these things, or maybe some others. Obviously some of these reasons make more sense than others. I'm pretty sure I've used all of these reasons at one time or another.
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 05:37 PM
(#3)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Questions is: WHY DO YOU CARE ?
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 06:48 PM
(#4)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
hey oriholic,
haven't seen ya' since the rockman tourney
i don't normaly pipe up in this forum but it seems you need an answer
i've been this guy
i know what is going on here
there is only 40 left in the pso so points have been made and the next chance for a big jump in points is final table
so being that i have only made about 5 more points since the bubble it's all about stacking up
you will play what you percieve as your best hand and your not worried about who you tangle with
it's all or nothing at this point
honestly both of you must not have had any good cards for awhile because if it was me i would have tried to double/triple up several times by now
again this is because it's the pso and not a regular MMT
you've made your points so it's time to go for final table or close it so you can pay more attention to the other games you got up

 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 10:00 PM
(#5)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
Apparentl asking the most important question about the topic is considered as non-construtive by yours trully trumpinjoe

Dear Puciek,

You have received a warning at PokerSchoolOnline Forum.

Reason:
-------
Inappropriate expression

Posts such as the the one shown below are non-constructive and serve to inhibit participation in the forums. Please make posts which are constructive and do not chase people away from the forums.
-------

Original Post:
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...d.php?p=249881
Quote:
Questions is: WHY DO YOU CARE ?
Warnings serve as a reminder to you of the forum's rules, which you are expected to understand and follow.

Thank you!
PokerSchoolOnline Forum


I kinda wonder, is he really that clueless about poker or just trying to show his power, how his moderator stuff can "own me".

Do tell

On other topic, when was the last "constructive post" any of you saw made by this dude ?
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 10:08 PM
(#6)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
well puciek i would respond but would you care?
i really don't
can't even say i care enough to point out the obvious of what you have done wrong now
so i'll just let it be and maybe you won't get a forum ban

ps thanks for not coming in here to rip on me for once

 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 10:09 PM
(#7)
Puciek's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 771
I stopped putting any care into your posts long time ago
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 10:16 PM
(#8)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
I stopped putting any care into your posts long time ago
now that is the puke i've come to know and love
glad you care

 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 11:29 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
Apparentl asking the most important question about the topic is considered as non-construtive by yours trully trumpinjoe

Dear Puciek,

You have received a warning at PokerSchoolOnline Forum.

Reason:
-------
Inappropriate expression

Posts such as the the one shown below are non-constructive and serve to inhibit participation in the forums. Please make posts which are constructive and do not chase people away from the forums.
-------

Original Post:
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...d.php?p=249881
Quote:
Questions is: WHY DO YOU CARE ?
Warnings serve as a reminder to you of the forum's rules, which you are expected to understand and follow.

Thank you!
PokerSchoolOnline Forum


I kinda wonder, is he really that clueless about poker or just trying to show his power, how his moderator stuff can "own me".

Do tell

On other topic, when was the last "constructive post" any of you saw made by this dude ?
Fact is Puciek, your answer is entirely incomplete. The result of its incompleteness is that it becomes insulting. Had you pt something ELSE in your post, like:

The question is: Why do you CARE?

You knew you were so short that you had to open shove jsut about any 2, and you did that. You also know that when oyou get called, you are almost certainly behind anything that would call you. After that, there is no reaosn to care if, or why someone calls; your decision process is over in the hand.


THEN you (probably, I do not want to put words in Joe's mouth) would not have gotten any warning.

The fact is, sir, your tenor in the forum is one of derisive "half-answers", that seem geared simply to be-little others.

It is my impression that what Joe is telling you is that such behavior is not appropriate.
....

Since I've answered the de-rail, I may as well take a swing at the actual question:

OP:

Since you are so mega-short, you are quite likely open shoving any 2 when you can exercise first in vig; you may also want to consider that similarly short stacks MIGHT know that too.

The guy who calls you, who has you covered by just 2 BB, needs to chip up almost as much as do you.

If you put Q3o into an equity calculator, like poker stove, you will find that versus a truly RANDOM range (meaning you will shove any 2 if it folds to you), Q3o has a 48.219% chance to win.

Now me, personally, I would not have called with Q3o, simply because it is a small dog to a random range; I'd have called you with a J6s or a Q7o though. I say this simply because those hands are a bit ABOVE 50% to win versus a random range (51.766% for Q7o, and 50.606% for J6s).

The fact there are antes in the pot adds "overlay" that your opponent MAY have viewed as "enough" of a reason to take a Q3o, and its slightly less than 50% equity versus a random shover, into battle...

So while he has you covered, he is hugely short too. Your shove, and the fold equity YOU have, has been exercised, and he knows it is going to be heads up with you; he has no need to sweat someone behind waking up with a "big hand". At that point, shortie on shortie means if I stand a chance to be right around 50/50, I almost certainly going for it (unless I am in a bubble situation maybe). He could have been thinking the same thing...

See?

Last edited by JDean; Fri Feb 04, 2011 at 11:45 PM..
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 11:32 PM
(#10)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Thanks to all the responses so far.

Panicky, I like reason 4. I guess it's that I expect all of these as justification for shoving first in (after all, that's pretty much what I did) I just thought it's generally a bad idea to tangle with a stack of similar size. But I guess by this point neither of us was even a medium stack, so it's not like he would have had a healthy stack if he folded.

Puciek, the reason I care is quite simple. I am here to improve my game If my shove wasn't correct, I'd like to know. I believe it was correct because between fold equity and the hand equity I'm sure I have plenty good odds for the 25k I contributed to the eventual 55k pot. Also, since the BB's call took me by surprise I was wondering if it was a correct call given the 1.75 to 1 odds and the fact that our stacks were so close in size. With a much bigger stack disparity I'm happy to get it in with 2 to 1 odds against most opponents (there are a few I know who will sooner blind out than push outside of a QQ+ range).

Hey Joker, good to see you again. I had tried to chip up a bit when I was in the 40k range. Lost an all in J7 suited vs. A9 or something (I button raised, BB shoved his extra BB, I called the 9 to 1 odds I was getting). Once the bubble broke I was playing like a normal MTT. I managed a stack of around 25k when the pennies fell. I built my stack up to around 50k at its peak--something like 16th out of 60 players, but after a couple orbits and a failed steal, my stack wasn't looking so hot. Also, how is this different from a normal MTT? I figure the reason everyone is shoving after the bubble breaks is because almost everyone's stack is deep in the deadzone and the only thing left to do is shove and pray.
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 11:34 PM
(#11)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
Jdean that was such a polite way to put it

but you left out the part it's against forum rules to post pm's especialy ones from the mods

 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 11:37 PM
(#12)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Thanks JDean. You're always so helpful. The main reason I care why he calls is that if I were in his position I would most likely fold. Should I be calling in his position?
 
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Sat Feb 05, 2011, 12:02 AM
(#13)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker41673 View Post
Jdean that was such a polite way to put it

but you left out the part it's against forum rules to post pm's especialy ones from the mods

you think they will notice ???

 
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Sat Feb 05, 2011, 12:22 AM
(#14)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Thanks JDean. You're always so helpful. The main reason I care why he calls is that if I were in his position I would most likely fold. Should I be calling in his position?
the answer is: it depends.

Simply put, can you read the mind of an opponent? probably not...

But if youd seen him shove a couple times before when mega short, and you had only 5 BB, then if you do have a 50%+ equity hand versus a random hand...probably so. At least youd want to think aobut the chance he is on a random range.

The fact is, you start in the BB (if in his spot) with 5 BB, and 1 of those is posted. If you fold, you are cedeing 20%+ of your stack (your BB plus the ante). If you have put anything aorund 20% into the pot, you are nearing a committment threshold.

(BTW: you have 2.77 M, NOT 3 BB, and the opponent has around a 3.3 M, not 5 BB. M is a ratio of the total pre-flop to your stck. so it is a ratiof of the blinds + antes divided into your stack. That is entirely different than "just" saying 3 BB and 5 BB. You actually have a bit over 6 BB to start, and your opponent has a little over 8 BB).

CAN you fold...sure!

MUST you fold, even with hands that might otherwise be considered "cheese"...no.

Consider...

(all the below should be viewed from the perspective of your OPPONENT!)

#1: You are unlikely to go much further in this event without a double up, since you are in a critical M "zone".
#2: The 8 handed table puts 10k in the pot pre-flop.
#3: Your opponent's (you, in actuality) shove adds another 25k. You (thinking as your opponent) have to call 21k to win 35k, or about 1.67 to 1 odds.
#4: Your call would close the betting (no one can re-raise behind you, and bet you "off" your rag hand).
#5: 1.67 to 1 means you need to feel you are around 37.5% to win to be postive on chip equity.
#6: If you FOLD, you gives up 13%+ of your super critical stack. Plus, you'll have to post another 8% as the SB.
#7: Your opponent (you) does NOT need a "monster" to shove.
#8: Your 33k stack is short enough you may not feel your "tourney equity" is enough to wait for a better spot, so your actual CHIP EQUITY (pot odds in this case) become operative.
#9: 37.5% to win needed equates to a situation analogous to something like ATo vs K9s, and K9s would have right around 37.5% chance to win (actually about 39%).
#10: ANY face card may well give you the type of situation you need for a "correct" chip equity call.
#11: Q3o, while WEAK, is a "face card" hand...

The actual thought that is improtant in your potential decision to call is: IS HE ON A TRULY RANDOM SHOVE RANGE

If not, your range is probably not going to include Q3o as a call.

If yes, then some rather weak holdings become potential calls, simply because both you and your opponent ARE so short.

Without time to "wait", you sometimes have to get lucky. Whether or not you want to pick THIS spot to get lucky on Q3o is really kinda up to your personal level of risk acceptance.
 
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Sat Feb 05, 2011, 12:32 AM
(#15)
spike8998's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
Me personally , I would never have called your shove
leaving myself BB
I would have folded , took the hit of losing the BB and bided my time
Hopefully picking up an all in hand of my own in the next 5 hands

for the play
 
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Sat Feb 05, 2011, 02:29 AM
(#16)
ClubbedNuts's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 61
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puciek View Post
Questions is: WHY DO YOU CARE ?
puc, have a look at my post entitled Terra Incognita.. I'm certain, despite your ignorance toward helping others achieve a higher degree of play by your constant degradation of one's actions and/or questions, you'll find some useful information.. I have to admit that I was a bit annoyed by your comment suggesting that I don't know how to play Poker in a recent post of mine, and can't experience a downswing in my game yet as tho I'm a noob and haven't played enough to meet your consideration of a quality player.. Your insensitivity toward the desire of others requesting 'positive' feedback in order to improve and/or not compound upon their own mistakes is not only unnecessary, but also unwarranted.. Take a moment to consider why you feel the compulsion to act like such a tool and determine why your own short-comings, whatever they may be, are leaking over into this forum.. I'm sure that there's not one person, aside from those w/ intentions to be an ass such as yourself, care to read your constant negative criticism.. This forum is an arena for positive, constructive criticism and advice, not the type D (bag) personality of which is clear you represent.. Typically, I'm not one to engage in name calling and negativity toward others, but your annoying behavior has triggered in me a desire to do so.. Seriously, dude, try to participate in morally appreciable human actions, not the neanderthal-like behavior that most of us evolved out of millenia ago.. Who knows; maybe you'll learn to enjoy life and the company of others.. Until then -silence is golden..!
 
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Sat Feb 05, 2011, 02:34 AM
(#17)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClubbedNuts View Post
puc, have a look at my post entitled Terra Incognita.. I'm certain, despite your ignorance toward helping others achieve a higher degree of play by your constant degradation of one's actions and/or questions, you'll find some useful information.. I have to admit that I was a bit annoyed by your comment suggesting that I don't know how to play Poker in a recent post of mine, and can't experience a downswing in my game yet as tho I'm a noob and haven't played enough to meet your consideration of a quality player.. Your insensitivity toward the desire of others requesting 'positive' feedback in order to improve and/or not compound upon their own mistakes is not only unnecessary, but also unwarranted.. Take a moment to consider why you feel the compulsion to act like such a tool and determine why your own short-comings, whatever they may be, are leaking over into this forum.. I'm sure that there's not one person, aside from those w/ intentions to be an ass such as yourself, care to read your constant negative criticism.. This forum is an arena for positive, constructive criticism and advice, not the type D (bag) personality of which is clear you represent.. Typically, I'm not one to engage in name calling and negativity toward others, but your annoying behavior has triggered in me a desire to do so.. Seriously, dude, try to participate in morally appreciable human actions, not the neanderthal-like behavior that most of us evolved out of millenia ago.. Who knows; maybe you'll learn to enjoy life and the company of others.. Until then -silence is golden..!
wellsaid

 

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