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do i under value ace-rag??

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do i under value ace-rag?? - Thu Feb 03, 2011, 08:21 PM
(#1)
deezer_dee's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 139
BronzeStar
please check this out...

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to deezer_dee [Ks Kc]
barge66: raises 920 to 940 and is all-in
HUCKSIM: folds
espanhol18: folds
suvlagisu: folds
deezer_dee: raises 1220 to 2160 and is all-in
jlb79: folds
Reby97: folds
Fraekke_Mo: calls 1460 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (680) returned to deezer_dee
*** FLOP *** [2d Tc Qc]
*** TURN *** [2d Tc Qc] [Ah]
*** RIVER *** [2d Tc Qc Ah] [Td]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Fraekke_Mo: shows [8d Ad] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
deezer_dee: shows [Ks Kc] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
Fraekke_Mo collected 1080 from side pot
barge66: shows [5d 5h] (two pair, Tens and Fives)
Fraekke_Mo collected 2830 from main pot
barge66 finished the tournament in 83rd place

Guess I should not have shoved over the top of the initial raiser. I did it on auto as a way to isolate the shover, doing it so that no one with marginal hands would join in but who would with such a large initial shove? Dude calls me with a crappy ace and hits the turn!

Is this standard cos I wouldn't even play this hand in a cash game and would only pre-flop shove/call if I was short stacked. Who's the donk here? Do I under value an ace? In hind sight I could have shoved post flop and took him off ace high but who knows? You have to be pot committed to your ace if you call 30 bbs pre-flop. Shoving over the top pre-flop was a mistake in this case but other advice would be appreciated.
 
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Thu Feb 03, 2011, 08:41 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
1. Don't be results oriented.

2. It's hard to undervalue A-rag

3. We need to know what the blinds were in order to give a more informed opinion on whether or not the A8s play was good, but it looks like it was not unless the blinds were so big that he's super short already.

4. Shoving is absolutely the right play, don't be results oriented (yes I said it twice... it's that important)
 
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Thu Feb 03, 2011, 10:54 PM
(#3)
deezer_dee's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 139
BronzeStar
the a8 call was for 60bb at start of the tourney when blinds were 15/30.

how can i not be results orientated? if i'm losing money by making these calls then shouldn't i change?
 
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Thu Feb 03, 2011, 11:08 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by deezer_dee View Post
the a8 call was for 60bb at start of the tourney when blinds were 15/30.
Then yeah, the A8's call was super bad.

Quote:
how can i not be results orientated? if i'm losing money by making these calls then shouldn't i change?
Because being results oriented leads you to making bad decisions and mistakes. Worry about the things you can control, like your own decisions, and not about the things you can't like the cards that run out. No matter how good the decisions are you make, you will not win every single trial. If you're making good decisions you will fair well in the long run. For example, if you folded 72o preflop and the flop came out 772, would you then say I guess I should be seeing the flop with 72, I might flop a full house! That's being results oriented.

Case in point right here. You made a good decision imo, and got your money in very good. But the fact that you lost has you believing you should change what you did here simply because it didn't work out this time, or because you've been running bad?

The fact is you are NOT losing money with this play... you are not going to win every single trial, but if you could make this same wager over and over millions of times, you would have a much, much larger pile of chips at the end of it than you started with.
 
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Thu Feb 03, 2011, 11:10 PM
(#5)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Don't be results oriented. Be decision oriented instead. Poker is a game of the long run and quality decisions win out in the long run.
 
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Thu Feb 03, 2011, 11:27 PM
(#6)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Deezer you've posted in the past that you think your BR management may be bad as well. What Dave and Joe are imparting here about poker being a game of making the right descisions and having the results of those descisions build over a long period of time,and over a large sample,is one of the reasons that good bankroll descisions are so important. That will keep you in the game so you can reap the benefits of making good descisions over the long haul. If you're sloppy and impulsive with your BR descisions then your increasing the risk of a bad run of variance (which is going to happen from time to time,no matter how good your descision-making is) crippling or even wiping out your bankroll and making you go the deposit route over and over.

Making the right descisions consistently are what's going to get you there. That starts BEFORE you sit down.
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 12:02 AM
(#7)
deezer_dee's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 139
BronzeStar
"Case in point right here. You made a good decision imo, and got your money in very good. But the fact that you lost has you believing you should change what you did here simply because it didn't work out this time, or because you've been running bad?

The fact is you are NOT losing money with this play... "

I'm sure that I did the right thing...who would fold KK there? Problem is that it's not working out for me and am losing money because I'm putting my money in good. Lose a coin-flip and I can take that but just tonight people have been cracking KK and AA all over the place. Or hitting that gutshot on the river.

My point is that playing loose seems to be working for my opponents so should I be doing the same. There's taking my money and I am losing money in the long run by playing the best hand and playing strong in order to protect. I can't really check on the stats of these guys who are sucking out on me so can't see whether they are losing money due to their loose play but they're kicking my but right now.

Am taking the beats a little better than I used to but doesn't change the fact that my bankroll is decreasing. But thanks for confirming my play was correct
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 12:10 AM
(#8)
deezer_dee's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 139
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Deezer you've posted in the past that you think your BR management may be bad as well. What Dave and Joe are imparting here about poker being a game of making the right descisions and having the results of those descisions build over a long period of time,and over a large sample,is one of the reasons that good bankroll descisions are so important. That will keep you in the game so you can reap the benefits of making good descisions over the long haul. If you're sloppy and impulsive with your BR descisions then your increasing the risk of a bad run of variance (which is going to happen from time to time,no matter how good your descision-making is) crippling or even wiping out your bankroll and making you go the deposit route over and over.

Making the right descisions consistently are what's going to get you there. That starts BEFORE you sit down.
Thanks for jumping in with this good point. Certainly these loses are affecting my bankroll but I'm pretty sure I'm playing games that I can afford. Problem is that my good decisions push my money up and the suck out seem just as frequent, so it goes down again. Started playing here about 5 months ago with $400 and it goes up and down but not up enough that I'm building a bankroll. Have about $415 in there right now due to me dropping about $27 today. Majority of play on FL tables and I can't recall a hand I lost where I wasn't way ahead pre and/or post flop. Many 2 outers and runner-runners.

Playing mostly 0.5-$1 and 0.25/0.5c FL. With sit and go I play $5 a lot of the time and have just started to experiment with $10 buy ins, but I'll have to pull back on the latter due to all the bad running. Am pretty happy with these limits with the bankroll I'm playing....agreed or no?
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 01:02 AM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by deezer_dee View Post
My point is that playing loose seems to be working for my opponents so should I be doing the same. There's taking my money and I am losing money in the long run by playing the best hand
Can I sighhhhh?

Ok, easy solution then. Start playing loose and getting your money in bad. Try it as an experiment for a few weeks, and let us know how that works out for you.
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 01:42 AM
(#10)
deezer_dee's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 139
BronzeStar
sorry to make you sigh but am just trying to get an idea of whether or not i play too tight. am certainly not going to start taking on huge shoves with ace rag but the thread was meant to be about the value in having any ace in your hand. if i had 10bb a8 suited is something i may very well shove with - so is it smart to play that way if i'm not desperate for chips? was hoping for that kind of discussion.

clearly i got my money in good that time and i wouldn't change my decision but obviously there are players out there who are shove happy with any ace. don't want to get too loose in my play (wouldn't if you told me i should, not my style) but dudes are calling raises with K-10 off and doing well in a game (though maybe not in long run) and it's not a call i would consider making. maybe defending my blinds but not when there's people to act behind. playing when i'm fairly sure i'm getting it in bad isn't the change i had in mind.

was thinking about my play after my last post and came up with a good reason why i'm not a winning player in the long run and it's so obvious that i'm almost embarressed to say it . when i am winning i play too scared and stop playing to protect my gains and when i lose, i go on tilt and stop. no wonder my bankroll doesn't change much. from now on i'm going to be more confident when my hands are holding up and keep playing...how else will i build a bankroll. need to get one of those mindset coaches!
 

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