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Were these good decisions?

 
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Were these good decisions? - Fri Feb 04, 2011, 04:38 PM
(#1)
guruana's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 9
1) I have Jd5d in BB (200) with 4775 chips and someone calls in MP1 with 7700 chips. We are heads- up and the flop is 7h8s9s. I raise 1200 and he triples my bet. Was it a good fold?

2)I have TT in SB (400) with 4775 chips and I raise 2000. Someone goes all-in in MP1 with 9308 chips. I call he has AhKh. Was it a good call?

Thank you
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 04:54 PM
(#2)
JT_Sooooted's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guruana View Post
1) I have Jd5d in BB (200) with 4775 chips and someone calls in MP1 with 7700 chips. We are heads- up and the flop is 7h8s9s. I raise 1200 and he triples my bet. Was it a good fold?

2)I have TT in SB (400) with 4775 chips and I raise 2000. Someone goes all-in in MP1 with 9308 chips. I call he has AhKh. Was it a good call?

Thank you

Was this in a morning tourney or afternoon? I like the first play in the morning but not in the afternoon. However, I love the second play anytime of the day. Except on Tuesday's of course.

Thx
JT
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 05:55 PM
(#3)
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Since: Jun 2010
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1) you should have NEVER bet after the flop, as you have absolutely nothing. Get out of the hand as quick as possible. You bet 3X the pot and any raise from them, they absolutely have you beat by a mile.

2) you were a 57% favorite, so no problem calling that one. It puts you slightly ahead in a coin-flip situation. The only way I'd even consider folding was if you were right before the $$ and had plenty of chips to make it if you fold.
 
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Fri Feb 04, 2011, 07:18 PM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
1) you should have NEVER bet after the flop, as you have absolutely nothing.
That's not true. The OP had a double gutshot straight draw. That's not really a bad hand, but it's definitely hard to play out of position like in this scenario.
 
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Sat Feb 05, 2011, 01:57 AM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guruana View Post
1) I have Jd5d in BB (200) with 4775 chips and someone calls in MP1 with 7700 chips. We are heads- up and the flop is 7h8s9s. I raise 1200 and he triples my bet. Was it a good fold?
Yes.

You still have 3300+, and are on a bit over 16 BB after your flop bet, so folding does not mean you are "out of it".

You make a semi-bluff, and the opponent raises an amount that forces you to shove or fold (you cannot call, then fold on the turn). His re-raise has committed him to calling if you do shove, simply for pot odds, even if he was "bluffing". So with your only real "clean" outs likely being the non-spade T's (Tc, Th, Td), and the slightly "discounted" non-spade 6's (you cannot consider 6's to be truly "clean", in case your opponent holds a T), you can probably only credit yourself with the equivalent of MAYBE 4.5 to 5 outs at most. A 19% chance to hit by the river is really not enough to put the remainder of your chips in over a re-raiser. Keep your 16 BB and move on...

I would question your semi-bluff raise SIZING though. Since the bigger stack limped, and you saw a "free" flop, that means there is "only" about 500 in the pot; why do you bet 1200?

A) had you flopped the straight, wouldn,t you try to "milk" a bit more value here than a + pot over bet, even with the possibility of a flush draw being there?
B) if you had a lesser "strong" made hand (like top 2 pair or a set), wouldn't you be WORRIED an opponent might have flopped a straight, thus concerned about over-betting that much?

To me, your bet almost SCREAMS "bluff or draw", and you bloated the pot enough to make it worth my while (if I'm the bigger stack) to try taking this one away. Of course, if you are "leveling" me with your thinking (using a big over bet on a monster hit as a value bet you want to be seen as a bluff), then it is pretty good. but you ARE semi-bluffing here, so you are vulnerable to losing that big 1200 bet.

Your 1200 bet puts you into a "wierd" spot of having just under 30% of your stack in the pot, but still having a stack you can "survive" on for a while (~16 BB). Why put yourself to such a difficult test at all?

I think you could have gotten what you "wanted", a FOLD, as easily with a bet of around 350 to 400 into a 500 chip pot, if you were getting it at all. A bet that size could have saved you a good chunk if you ARE re-raised too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guruana View Post
2) I have TT in SB (400) with 4775 chips and I raise 2000. Someone goes all-in in MP1 with 9308 chips. I call he has AhKh. Was it a good call?

Thank you
first off, something does not "scan" right here. did the MP1 player LIMP, then you shoved? I am going to "assume" that, and based my response on that thought...

It is a good call, but a pretty bad bet size.

You start the hand with just around 6 BB, and have almost 10% of your stack posted in the SB. You are SHORT.

An MP limper now puts the pot at 2000, plus the antes. Taking this pot down right there with a SHOVE is going to be worth right around a 50% chip up for your stack;You NEED that chip up!

TT is not a strong enough hand (since it will see at lest 1 over card on the flop well over 50% of the time) to risk "getting cute" with it by betting out 2k of your 4375 stack (amount behind your 400 SB). That raise of 2k lays over 2 to 1 for the limper to call, and THAT "let's in" hands like KJ/QJ that are RACING you, but that may have folded (for fear of domination) had you shoved. Remember: 2 to 1 is a "magic" number, right aobut where the threat of "domination" is off-set by pots odds when you know that is all you must risk (such as by calling an all-in).

What he CALLED you with does not really matter, and thinking that it does is "results oriented thinking". The fact of this hand is that had you shoved, your opponent is almost certainly calling you. The other fact is, had he FLAT CALLED you, instead of putting you all-in, and you saw a J, a Q, a K, or an A on the flop (well above 50% likely, remember?), would you have folded away over half your stack?

You should have shoved over his limp right off the bat, and not played this "good", but vulnerable hand in a manner that only makes your subsequent decisions a lot harder.

Last edited by JDean; Sat Feb 05, 2011 at 02:02 AM..
 
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Sat Feb 05, 2011, 05:28 AM
(#6)
guruana's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT_Sooooted View Post
Was this in a morning tourney or afternoon? I like the first play in the morning but not in the afternoon. However, I love the second play anytime of the day. Except on Tuesday's of course.

Thx
JT
it was the 3$30+R 21:30 EET which makes it an evening tourney at my country is this so important?

Thank you for the reply
 
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Sat Feb 05, 2011, 06:05 AM
(#7)
guruana's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 9
I would question your semi-bluff raise SIZING though. Since the bigger stack limped, and you saw a "free" flop, that means there is "only" about 500 in the pot; why do you bet 1200?

Actually im kind of new to the "correct beting". Doesnt it "always" have to be 4xBB+1BB for every limp on the preflop? Actually it was after the flop so I bet BB+1BB for the limp. As I can understand it has been wrong. What bet would have been correct? Is there any rule for post flop bets? By the way I apologise as i just saw my history hand and my bet was 800 instead of 1200

PokerStars Game #57114505957: Tournament #405010515, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2011/02/04 22:36:17 EET [2011/02/04 15:36:17 ET]Table '405010515 487' 9-max Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 1: guruana (5775 in chips) Seat 2: thaigene (7005 in chips) Seat 3: kazah123 (7560 in chips) Seat 4: burnboy12 (7800 in chips) Seat 5: bid23biz (5100 in chips) Seat 6: sanya46 (7868 in chips) is sitting outSeat 7: mozhne (4850 in chips) Seat 8: spotme7 (2225 in chips) is sitting outSeat 9: pokermyth666 (2830 in chips) pokermyth666: posts small blind 100guruana: posts big blind 200*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to guruana [Jd 5d]thaigene: folds kazah123: calls 200burnboy12: folds bid23biz: calls 200sanya46: folds mozhne: folds spotme7: folds pokermyth666: folds guruana: checks *** FLOP *** [7h 8s 9s]sanya46 has returnedguruana: bets 800kazah123: folds bid23biz: raises 4100 to 4900 and is all-inguruana: folds Uncalled bet (4100) returned to bid23bizbid23biz collected 2300 from potbid23biz: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY ***Total pot 2300 | Rake 0 Board [7h 8s 9s]

A) had you flopped the straight, wouldn,t you try to "milk" a bit more value here than a + pot over bet, even with the possibility of a flush draw being there?

I counted 8 outs actually 4xT and 4x6. I repeat that i'm new into this . What did I miss? And my pot odds were 1.5:1

first off, something does not "scan" right here. did the MP1 player LIMP, then you shoved? I am going to "assume" that, and based my response on that thought...

Actually he did limp indeed

It is a good call, but a pretty bad bet size.

That's what i thought about but i was a bit late

The other fact is, had he FLAT CALLED you, instead of putting you all-in, and you saw a J, a Q, a K, or an A on the flop (well above 50% likely, remember?), would you have folded away over half your stack?

No way!!
 
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Sun Feb 06, 2011, 02:07 AM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guruana View Post
Actually im kind of new to the "correct beting". Doesnt it "always" have to be 4xBB+1BB for every limp on the preflop? Actually it was after the flop so I bet BB+1BB for the limp. As I can understand it has been wrong. What bet would have been correct? Is there any rule for post flop bets? By the way I apologise as i just saw my history hand and my bet was 800 instead of 1200
Quote:
Originally Posted by guruana View Post

PokerStars Game #57114505957: Tournament #405010515, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) -
2011/02/04 22:36:17 EET [2011/02/04 15:36:17 ET]
Table '405010515 487' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: guruana (5775 in chips)
Seat 2: thaigene (7005 in chips)
Seat 3: kazah123 (7560 in chips)
Seat 4: burnboy12 (7800 in chips)
Seat 5: bid23biz (5100 in chips)
Seat 6: sanya46 (7868 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: mozhne (4850 in chips)
Seat 8: spotme7 (2225 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 9: pokermyth666 (2830 in chips)
pokermyth666: posts small blind 100
guruana: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to guruana [Jd 5d]
thaigene: folds
kazah123: calls 200
burnboy12: folds
bid23biz: calls 200
sanya46: folds
mozhne: folds
spotme7: folds
pokermyth666:
folds guruana: checks
*** FLOP *** [7h 8s 9s]
sanya46 has returned
guruana: bets 800
kazah123: folds
bid23biz: raises 4100 to 4900 and is all-in
guruana: folds
Uncalled bet (4100) returned to bid23biz
bid23biz collected 2300 from pot
bid23biz: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2300 | Rake 0 Board [7h 8s 9s]
(I "cleaned up" your hand paste for clarity)

4x + 1 BB per limper is an OLDER "standard" raise pre-flop. This raise sizing is meant to deny decent odds to the BB unless he holds a truly "large" hand, and would likely result in a pick up of blinds, or a re-raise only by a STRONGER hand than yours.

Newer "poker think" is to raise a smaller amount, usually 2.25 BB to 3 BB + 1 BB per limper pre-flop. This reflects a greater overall aggression level in the more "modern" MTTs, and the higher likelihood of re-raises by lesser holdings. The smaller pre-flop raise amount now "en vogue" is configured to deny a pre-flop pot of enough size to make it a valid "target" for bluff re-raises, and also to ENCOURAGE weaker BB calls.

AFTER the flop however, bets are, or should be, more often configured in terms not of BB amounts, but rather as a percentage of the pot.

This means...

The 1200 bet you stated, assuming the SINGLE limper your stated, means you would have launched a 240% pot bet!
Even with the actual 2 limpers making the pot 700 on the flop, your 800 bet is a 114% pot bet.

Would you "over bet" the size of the pot if you WANTED a call? Or would you have bet more like 350 to 400 into the 700 pot if you really had the hand you were "representing" (2 pair or better)?

The fact is, the theory behind bet sizing is VERY complex, and all by itself can lead to a HUGE post/thread. I will toss out a couple thoughts for you to ponder and research though:

A) the more players in a hand, the less likelihood there is for a bluff to "work"
B) if you have a hand which you believe is "best", you probably will want to bet enough of an amount to DENY proper odds for a draw to call you, but an amount which is small enough to INVITE a call with those improper odds. Larger bet sizes than this should be made when you think you can get more value by betting larger (sometimes more "value" means you can force someone to fold a hand you cannot beat when you make the bet). Google: "Fundemental Theorem of Poker"
C) the stronger your opponent's holding, the harder it will be to make him fold.
D) ANY bet you make will tell a "story". in many cases, a large bet says "I do not WANT a call", not "I think you are such a calling station I am sure you will pay me off!" The stronger your opponent's holding, the more likely he is to think that your "story" is telling him the first statement.
E) the LARGER you bet on a bluff (or semi-bluff), the more often it is likely to work, but the larger you bet on a bluff, the more PAINFUL a single loss of that bet will be. (Attributed to the "Book of Bluffs").
F) the more COORDINATED ("coordination" reflects a higher the likelihood of 2 pair or better hands) the board, the stronger your opponent's holding is likely to be if he calls, and the SMALLER a bluff needs to be to "work", if it has any chance to work at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guruana View Post
I counted 8 outs actually 4xT and 4x6. I repeat that i'm new into this . What did I miss? And my pot odds were 1.5:1
Google: "discounting outs in poker"

An "out" is any card that improves your hand to the BEST HAND.
In certain situations, a card which may seem to be an "out" will improve you, but make your opponent a BETTER hand.

In the hand you posted, you hold a Jd5d, on a flop of 7h 8s 9s.

The Ts could improve your hand to a J high straight, but give an opponent a flush.
The 6s could improve you to a 9h straight, and give your opponent a flush.
ANY 6 will improve you to a 9 hi straight, but could give an opponent with any T a T hi straight.
Even a non-spade T coming, gives you a J hi straight, but an opponent could have a Q hi straight (with a QJ).

All of these would be considered "dirty" outs to some extent, and really should not be counted at their full value.

(note: a non-spade T is probably not THAT "dirty", since a QJ is unlikely to call a bet with just a gut shot draw. A non spade 6 is more "dirty", because it is more likely something like an T8/T9 would call a bet by you. the T or 6 of spades is very dirty, since a hand like K7s/A7s/ATs/KTs/QTs is very likely to call a flop bet by you, see?)

If you woul like a more "complete" chat about bet sizing, and the thoughts behind it, feel free to search the General forum on PSO for information about the Suited Aces Study group, and our Ventrilo channel. I would be happy to meet you on there, and chat more with you in "real time" about bet sizing.
 
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Sun Feb 06, 2011, 02:36 AM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guruana View Post
No way!!
Any time you are on a stack of 10 BB, in fact just about any time you are on a stack of 15 BB or less, you should NOT be raising to enter the pot without giving serious consideration to shoving in all your chips no matter what comes.

The reason for this is simple...

The BIGGEST MISTAKE in poker is: Placing a significant portion of your chips into the pot, then FOLDING!

If you make this "biggest mistake", that means:

A: You should have recognized your chance to win was small, and not entered at all.
B: You should have recognized you had little chance to draw out, and folded before putting in a significant amount.
C: You should have "committed" to your hand earlier, to avoid a difficult decision about folding away a significant portion of your stack when you see cards giving you little chance to win.

So...

When you are as short as in the hand in your Q. #2, you cannot afford any kind of "standard" raise, followed by a FOLD, in any but the most EXTREME circumstances.

The hand with which you decide to raise was TT, and that hand will see at least 1 over card on the flop well over 50% of the time. If an opponent FLAT CALLS your raise in an amount near to half your stack, and an A/K/Q/J hits on the flop, you now have a very "sticky" situation...

A:
If your TT is "best", the opponent is un-likely to call with a worse hand, or without a DRAW which is getting the right "price" (since your follow up shove is going to lay a big amount of pots odds for a call).

B:
If your opponent DOES call, he probably has hit that over card (or had your TT "beat" all along). In this case, you are probably drawing to only 2 outs to catch up.

Getting yourself caught in that situation means you are either going to LOSE your entire stack (most likely), or win JUST the 2k he called pre-flop when he folds.

The same 2 things go for even the times an over card to your Ts does NOT flop...

Now...

If instead you had SHOVED pre-flop, you have ended your "decisions"; either your TT is the best hand and holds, or it doesn't. If it holds, you now double up, plus win "extra" from the antes, and if it doesn;t you were not likely to go much further on your tiny stack any way.

Either he calls, or he doesn't. If he does call, you are back to seeing whether your TT holds (as the best) or sucks out (if he holds better). If he doesn't call, you have added 1200 (your SB you might have folded, plus the BB) and the antes, and get a fat 20%+ chip up that you despretely need; you do this without ANY risk of losing.

Google: Fold Equity

A Shove also leverages maximum "fold equity" versus hands that have a good chance of drawing out on you like QJ/KJ/KQ/AJ etc...

so when you are short, consider removing yourself from potetial "difficult" decisions with decently strong, but vulnerable hands like TT, and reserve your bets like the one you state for hands you will find much eASIER to committ to on ANY flop, like AA/KK, and maybe QQ.
 
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Sun Feb 06, 2011, 05:55 AM
(#10)
guruana's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 9
Well that was a lesson!! I downloeaded ventrilo and used the information you gave but still cant connect. Coulf you help me?

Cant wait to meet all of you
 
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Sun Feb 06, 2011, 01:26 PM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guruana View Post
Well that was a lesson!! I downloeaded ventrilo and used the information you gave but still cant connect. Coulf you help me?

Cant wait to meet all of you
You may have found the "old" server info?

I will post the info here:

1) Down Load Ventrilo client at www.ventrilo.com
2) When done, open the desktop icon. You will see a "lobby screen" into which you must input some info. To input the info, click the right pointing arrow to the right of each of the 3 boxes at the top (user name, server, bindings). Click each, one at a time, and do the following:

Click next to "user name"
A drop down menu will show, click "new".
Another drop down menu will show.
Enter your PSO nick name (or whatever you'd like to be called), and click "ok".
Click "ok" on the next screen to return to the lobby screen.

Then...

Click next to "Server Name"
At the top, click "new".
Type in "Suited Aces" (without the quotes, of course!). This "names" the server.
click ok.
On the main Server Name screen, enter:
v84.darkstarllc.com on the hostname/ip line
4556 on the port number line.

Make sure all the boxes at the bottom have a green check in them, and hit "ok"

then hit connect!

You will be in. As soon as you are, click "chat" on the right, and you can type to communicate, until we help you set up your mic.

BTW:

The most likely reason you cannot get in, if you entered this info, is that you mis-spelled ventrilo.
It has 1 "L", and everything in the info lines must be speeled exactly, or it will not connect.

Hope to see you there soon!
 
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Sun Feb 06, 2011, 02:34 PM
(#12)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
guruana,

Kudos for asking the right question. One of the hardest lessons for new poker players to learn is to ignore the results of individual hands and focus on the decision making process.
 

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