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The Clock Is Even More Critical Now

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The Clock Is Even More Critical Now - Sat Feb 05, 2011, 04:46 AM
(#1)
L_Goose52's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 5
Now that only the top 10% get paid, one has to go that much deeper to hit the payouts. This means that it is even more important than before to conserve chips by playing slowly after the antes kick in. The bubble seems to burst now around the end of the 800/1600 level. Assume for ease of comparison that it bursts on the last hand of that level.

Here's something to think about:

A player at a table playing 5 hands per level, who started the 125/250 level on the button will have paid $6,875 in blinds and antes when the bubble bursts. A player at a table playing 8 hands per level who started the 125/250 level on the button will have paid more than DOUBLE that - a whopping $14,050 in blinds and antes when the bubble bursts.

Which table would you like to be at?
 
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Sat Feb 05, 2011, 09:29 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,862
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whichever one I can get some cards and stack some chips, so I wouldn't have to worry about it.
 
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Sat Feb 05, 2011, 09:54 PM
(#3)
Eagle3947's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 66
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by L_Goose52 View Post
Now that only the top 10% get paid, one has to go that much deeper to hit the payouts. This means that it is even more important than before to conserve chips by playing slowly after the antes kick in. The bubble seems to burst now around the end of the 800/1600 level. Assume for ease of comparison that it bursts on the last hand of that level.

Here's something to think about:

A player at a table playing 5 hands per level, who started the 125/250 level on the button will have paid $6,875 in blinds and antes when the bubble bursts. A player at a table playing 8 hands per level who started the 125/250 level on the button will have paid more than DOUBLE that - a whopping $14,050 in blinds and antes when the bubble bursts.

Which table would you like to be at?

+1

I noticed something was different lately I just couldnt quite put my finger on it it totally makes sense tho
 
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Tue Feb 08, 2011, 08:33 AM
(#4)
Titokhan's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 4
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heres my problem with that..

many time lechers start WAY before you even get anywhere close to the bubble. in many cases they're leeching right out of the gate.

If your at a table where 5 or 6 of the players are leeching, you might only SEE 5-6 hands per level, let alone PLAY 5-6 hands per level

many of the leechers aren't even trying to make the money, they're leeching as much as possible to finish at a point where they get positive points so they can move up the leaderboard.

the point of a SKILL league is to test your SKILLS as a player, thats part of the reason they are all freerolls that you only need to pass a test to play in. It's supposed to be able to separate those of us who really can play from the ones who have watched enough TV poker to have a basic understanding and use the ATC concept of playing and betting.

But when you get people who will just milk the clock, and go all in when 2 sitouts are in the blinds to stick around longer doesn't show skill, it just means you know how to manipulate the system to get ahead

Edited to add more ranting

Last edited by Titokhan; Tue Feb 08, 2011 at 08:40 AM..
 
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Tue Feb 08, 2011, 08:37 AM
(#5)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,226
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I guess I'm a "lecher" then. And yes, it has been said before
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 02:14 AM
(#6)
Ace King 61's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 421
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Dude, you haven't any idea of what you are saying here. Using the clock is a strategy which allows you to fade the sitters and then make it to ITM. And yes...I do it from hand 1 til the end. Always have and always will. You are new to this league and you will soon learn what it takes...or be at the bottom of the rankings. Adapt and conquer. If in a hurry then go play a turbo. Lots of strategies are used in this league by the better players that make money at month's end. One is the SKILL of patience. This isn't actually a freeroll.. IMO. There are 17,500 reasons to use these strategies. Good luck to you cause more than likely you are going to need it.
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 03:49 PM
(#7)
hobojim11247's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,388
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Thanks for correcting my misperception. I always thought the purpose of the skill league was to get the most money possible at the end of the month.
I guess I was wrong, thank you for pointing out that I should be testing my skills without regard to whether I make any money or not.
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 04:03 PM
(#8)
hobojim11247's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
I guess I'm a "lecher" then. And yes, it has been said before
TSK Tsk. You should feel ashamed of yourself for leeching your way to $1000 in December instead of "testing" your skill. It is leeches like you and me that sabatage this league and spoil the true 'Testers" fun.
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 10:48 PM
(#9)
Boophoenix's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by L_Goose52 View Post
Which table would you like to be at?


Very good question. I wanna be at the faster table. See more hand, see more good cards, and take down more pots. I can't wrap my head around the slow playing half a dozen times I've just thrown in the towel to get away from it.

The reason I want the faster table if you can play decent you can aquire a lot more chips to survive the blinds longer. Your thought implies that you never play a hand. Do the math with the asumption you gain 50% ( any percentage will work ) of your stack every 20 hands and see where ya come out. Because every slow table I've ever been on came up short..

Slow rolling you normally end up below average and give the bigger loser stack from another table an easy cover of your stack for his weaker cards. Say i've got 30k in chips you've been playing it safe and slow for the points and you come in around 9k. You make a 4.5k push with a premium hand I'm inclined to call with maybe JT suited. For the simple reason you aren't a threat.
  • I don't hit the flop or multiple out I can walk away and not think twice about it.
  • You hit AK I'm getting fair enough to call for the straight
  • maybe I get two cards of my flush with you A I'm still in
  • ect.......


You doubled up cought the flop and I lost you're now say 22k. I'm 21k since I lost. I'm gonna stiffen up a little, but still go after a little if I can get in cheap enough and not be covered. I catch a couple of more hands and get my cards. i'm 30K again Same thing happens you get the premium cards make a move. I've got ya covered but you just did a 5X blinds push I have something to play with and call.

Flop is rags no premium cards. You protect and raise by raising the flop.

Maybe I got a piece or didn't. I come over. Even if I'm bluffing are you prepared to risk your points if I bring you allin with nothing but an ace? You've seen I'll call ya knowing I likely have a weaker hand. I also can assume you are worried about the points and will limit your risk.

Bad scenario you win again. I've still got chips and acually like playing from short makes me play a bit tighter. I have to work a little now to recover, but I don't mind.

This assumes you're playing tight poker and not getting in very often unless you have premiums. The fact of it is I'm watching the points, but figure I can get them back if I lose them. I gain faster than I lose them so lets play some cards not wait for the cows to come home.


Maybe I'm wrong. That's fine by me I came for a better game and found a bunch of dairy farmers milking there way threw. I've not seen a lot of skill on the tables till near the bubble ( yes I have bubble boy tattooed on my forehead ).

I was looking to strengthen my game once deeper into things. Everyone is so concerned about the points standing like it's the playoff for something( if you're in the running I can understand some top 1000 maybe you're getting something ) . If not in the top 1000 and playing enough to cash from the top 1000 then you're losing money to gain the FPP's. Played one the other day a guy was stalling every single hand, looked him up he was ranked 6??? of the around 8000 at that time. You're in the top ten near months end Hey I'll slow down some for ya you'll atleast get something worth having out of it. Are you even getting a penny an hour if your not in the top 10 for the time spent?

How many tourneys acually benifit you from learning to slow roll? Seems like there is a tourney leaders board with some prizes for cash, but the odds of getting there with the tricks learned to survive here won't get ya to far I don't think ( maybe wrong again ). Playing for money is a lot differant than free rolling most of the players are fair or better. So if slowing isn't getting you in the cash on the tables here then you're learning bad habits.

I think I just found the largest place move I've seen in the points. The guy that won the tourney I was in earlier moved up to 1040 ^6359. If he doesn't lose any points I think he might pass me after my next to losings. Second place got 88 ^162. Little ole me 658 ^439. started yesterday at 619.

That's just my two cents I won earlier. Maybe I'm in the wrong place to find a better game to take to real tourneys. Or maybe I'm still to much of a newbie (19 days) to see some kind of value to being a dairy farmer.

P.S. new stradegy don't get into a pot in the next few tourneys early on after a good placing! The rewards aren't good, lol Just took two beats by player ranked 10297 out of 10300. one was a good beat, the second was a suckout. Just got my place back and now gonna go back near a 1000, lol!

P.S.S. I wonder what you have to do to be dead last at months end? Seems like that might be harder than being on top. To lose the most possible points if they are competing for that too no wonder we've got it ruff early.
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 11:28 PM
(#10)
Ace King 61's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 421
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Quote:
Or maybe I'm still to much of a newbie (19 days) to see some kind of value to being a dairy farmer.
Only thing I read you were right about! BTW...check my OPR...I win in real money games too.
 
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Fri Feb 11, 2011, 02:35 AM
(#11)
Boophoenix's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace King 61 View Post
Only thing I read you were right about! BTW...check my OPR...I win in real money games too.
Thank ya for the reply:

Like I said "maybe I'm wrong". It was just my opinion to a question. Maybe the stalling hurts my game that bad. I know it does some for sure because it makes me ill and bored. I play to pass the time not make more.

Sorry, I didn't look up your stats I'll take it you do win ( congradulation ). Do you piddle around every hand for 12 seconds or what ever time is allowed? I do realise there is some time to factor odds and such that may be needed, but can't that be done while the guy ahead of you uses his time? If you've got rags do you still eat the time because you might use that time with monsters as a decoy to be consistant?

Maybe I don't think enough ( acually I'm pretty certain I do not ). I know what my play is as soon as I get my cards untill another varible pops up ( a push or checks ). Most of the time I've already checked my play in the little white box unless I have to wait to make a raise.

I've played off and on for a few years. I'm not good at it but I'd like to think i'm near fair atleast. I know where most of my weak points are, but not as good at correcting them. And maybe you just answered another for me. If it's a good play I'll never be much better than fair, because I can't do it. Acually I won't do it would be a better reasoning. If I get stumped by some outragous play I sometimes get that little ding sound, but very rarely.


May I ask you a question Ace King 61 ?

When you are playing in a the money tourneys do you just try to get 400 the place? Or are you aiming for the last seat or money?

I've looked at your ranking now. Nice stats. Pretty good consistancy ( much better than mine ). Nice, no acually great improvement in your game. If you don't mind another opinion I'm thinking we were close in ability when we both started. You played alot more games your first month ( august ) than I did in mine ( January ). You placed better than I did, however I had about a 75% larger field to deal with. Maybe I'll get over my downfalls and hope to do as well as you have when I've been here longer.

I may have to see if I can catch up some. If work stays slow enough I can get a couple of games in a day I don't see 500 being that difficult. Think I'll try for top 100 next month just to throw some food for thought into the mix. While trying to play fast.

Before it's brought up I do play using a sprint wireless card so the latency sometimes gives the impression I'm dragging my feet. Let me assure you I'm not I'm cussing sprint on the other end of the screen. And if I don't break 100 next month I'll try my best to layup in April to see if it is a factor for myself. I might need some tutoring on that. I'll try to rember to check back in and update.
 
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Using the clock - Fri Feb 11, 2011, 03:48 PM
(#12)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
I agree that its really boring using up those extra seconds, I try to play at least two other tables to keep me occupied. I'm not really taking a run at the leaderboard, just trying to stay in the money and keep up my rating to qualify for the extra tourneys.

I have watched some of the leaders play, and they DO use the clock every hand. If that's the way to win, you just have to adapt to it. That's also a part of poker, to be able to adapt to different situations. Just my 2 cents.

Good luck!!
 
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Fri Feb 11, 2011, 04:29 PM
(#13)
DONKEYSPIKER's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 123
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace King 61 View Post
Dude, you haven't any idea of what you are saying here. Using the clock is a strategy which allows you to fade the sitters and then make it to ITM. And yes...I do it from hand 1 til the end. Always have and always will. You are new to this league and you will soon learn what it takes...or be at the bottom of the rankings. Adapt and conquer. If in a hurry then go play a turbo. Lots of strategies are used in this league by the better players that make money at month's end. One is the SKILL of patience. This isn't actually a freeroll.. IMO. There are 17,500 reasons to use these strategies. Good luck to you cause more than likely you are going to need it.

I had to make my message longer to post.

+++++++++++1
 
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Fri Feb 11, 2011, 10:56 PM
(#14)
Boophoenix's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by joy7108 View Post
I have watched some of the leaders play, and they DO use the clock every hand. If that's the way to win, you just have to adapt to it. That's also a part of poker, to be able to adapt to different situations. Just my 2 cents.

Good luck!!

I'm not looking to just adapt and be another average number. I wanna overcome and be a better number on the wall.

Right now I know my game is like to swiss cheese, but i know where a lot of my holes are just haven't found the proper way for me to plug them just yet. That's what I came here for to play better players and figure that one out. And if I can't figure it out another way than twidling my thumbs then I'll never see that wall and will stop playing some day.

Untill this week I needed faster tourneys. my internet card would lose charge faster than it gained. Stars stressed it to much. Have solved that issue now. Now it's just a prefrence.
 
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Sun Feb 13, 2011, 12:02 AM
(#15)
Boophoenix's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boophoenix View Post
I'm not looking to just adapt and be another average number. I wanna overcome and be a better number on the wall.

Stars nor work either oner are agreeing with my plan very much. Eating crow might suck ( wonder if it tastes like chicken ) ! Wonder what the next hobby will be to kill time?
 
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Sun Feb 13, 2011, 11:58 AM
(#16)
Cheon57's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
BronzeStar
For what it's worth, the PSO certainly isn't the only place in poker where the clock is used.

In any given tournament, at every buy-in level, there are players that use the clock on every hand.

Granted not as many as in the PSO but it is a part of the game just the same.

The fact that so many use the clock in the PSO makes each individual decision more important due to the fact that if you have 3 clockers at 1 table then you are not likely to see more than 30 to 35 hands per hour if that or less than 1 orbit per blind level.

This puts a lot of pressure on the less skilled players which in turn creates some but certainly not all of the shovefests that often occur within the structure of PSO tournaments.

I don't foresee the clock going away so I suggest that those who are having difficulty handling it spend a little more time studying and working on improving their fundamentals.

Many of the things taught here are not so black and white and easily defined while others are.

Patience and discipline are clearly the foundation of the whole thing because without those, you will go insane trying to deal with the full spectrum of poker skill levels that are within the PSO.

The people that finish high on the leaderboard consistantly are not getting there just because they clock.

Anyone under the impression that clocking alone will get them there is going to find that they have spent a lot of time doing a whole lot of nothing and getting exactly what their effort deserved.

Nothing..


Last edited by Cheon57; Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 02:33 PM..
 
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Sun Feb 13, 2011, 01:49 PM
(#17)
Boophoenix's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
Thank you for the insiteful input Cheon57.

Think I'm gonna have to swallow the crow ( chicken tasting or not ). I can't deal with it !! Player in 9000th place ( acting like he's in first coming up on the second break where points are near ) at 10 / 20 blinds gets under my skin worse than the guy killing a table with rags every hand.


I was having a bit of fun asside from tic tock. Then I got thinking about it and seeing less and less value in even playing the PSO. I'm getting more out of the hubble and 90k after the first hour than these. The only bonus is they are more often.

I play every tourney like I payed to get in untill I get bored. I could get in local games to sit around bored and clean up. The odd things that happen out of low odd draws and strange plays give enough doubt about buying back into poker ( guys all in every hand for 7 or 8 rounds in a row, I catch rockets behind him, he folds with no action to him, I catch BB/SB of which BB is mine, next 6 hands in a row allin again, then closed the window ).
 
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Mon Feb 14, 2011, 01:03 AM
(#18)
Boophoenix's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by L_Goose52 View Post
A player at a table playing 5 hands per level, who started the 125/250 level on the button will have paid $6,875 in blinds and antes when the bubble bursts. A player at a table playing 8 hands per level who started the 125/250 level on the button will have paid more than DOUBLE that - a whopping $14,050 in blinds and antes when the bubble bursts.

Which table would you like to be at?

I came up with something different. I got 12225 and 14025. I've got 6150 in just BB for 5 hands?

I had it all typed out but timed out., My figures are simple not some huge math formula.
I assumed that 5 hands were played for 5 handed and antes for each along with one BB and one SB per level and the same for 8 hands were played per level.

I did go a bit further and tinkered with ( it's a bit lose ), what if you could take down blinds and antes every 10 hands and figured this into it as well. I also went with there are 9 players per table for antes.

Attached are two pdfs of what I came up with. Feel free to point out where I oopsed again sorry for the poor layout board didn;t like the size so had to cut in half and shrink.

8 Hands.pdf

5 Hands.pdf
 
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Mon Feb 14, 2011, 02:32 AM
(#19)
Ace King 61's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 421
BronzeStar
Looks to me like you have too much time on your hands already, so now you need to learn patience. This is a must in poker! Getting bored will only lead to trouble and spewing chips.

Everyone is telling you why and how you should use the clock....and you keep looking for reasons not to. To each his own.
 
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Mon Feb 14, 2011, 10:46 PM
(#20)
Boophoenix's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace King 61 View Post
Looks to me like you have too much time on your hands already, so now you need to learn patience. This is a must in poker! Getting bored will only lead to trouble and spewing chips.

Everyone is telling you why and how you should use the clock....and you keep looking for reasons not to. To each his own.

Some times I have soome spare time somtimes not, but if something is bugging me I try to figure out why. I spew my fair share no denying that.

No one has given me good reasoning other than little Johnny does it to explain the clock aside from L_Goose52 , but my side of the math doesn't add up the same ( not a mathmatichian though ). It seems you can gain a lot more than you can lose. The most I've lost ina single game is around 19 yet 25th gets me nearly 38 and just breaking even ( 1500 points ) puts ya in the top 40% by the looks of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just thinking !!
I'm not even sure why there are points? why not just do an average of everyones finishes? Oh wait that wouldn't work first place winner only ever plays one game he's always first. Only award points for the bubble up everything else losses something. It's like giving a second place prize for last all the way back down to last again. I tinkered with an average of one of the top ten this month if I recall correctly the average finish was 340 or somewhere there abouts. Real skill would be in the money more than out ( about a 190 or up average ). No browny points for bubble when playing for money. So this is just teasing ya into thinking you;re better than you may acually be ( maybe that's the goal i'm good lets get into real tourneys and pay the house 10% to get halfway to the bubble ) aside from paying you to manipulate the system .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titokhan View Post
heres my problem with that..

many time lechers start WAY before you even get anywhere close to the bubble. in many cases they're leeching right out of the gate.

If your at a table where 5 or 6 of the players are leeching, you might only SEE 5-6 hands per level, let alone PLAY 5-6 hands per level

many of the leechers aren't even trying to make the money, they're leeching as much as possible to finish at a point where they get positive points so they can move up the leaderboard.

the point of a SKILL league is to test your SKILLS as a player, thats part of the reason they are all freerolls that you only need to pass a test to play in. It's supposed to be able to separate those of us who really can play from the ones who have watched enough TV poker to have a basic understanding and use the ATC concept of playing and betting.

But when you get people who will just milk the clock, and go all in when 2 sitouts are in the blinds to stick around longer doesn't show skill, it just means you know how to manipulate the system to get ahead

Edited to add more ranting

Made some vallid points.
 

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