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kk,,should i have raised more

 
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kk,,should i have raised more - Sun Feb 06, 2011, 02:48 PM
(#1)
DouglasAD_68's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 26
WhiteStar
(50/100) - 2011/02/06 13:03:11 CT [2011/02/06 14:03:11 ET]
Table '358195008 1686' 10-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: DrAlexSyS (4010 in chips)
Seat 2: XXXX53 (1550 in chips)
Seat 3: mach77seb (2460 in chips)
Seat 4: isseusse (2890 in chips)
Seat 5: ssvveettaa79 (6055 in chips)
Seat 6: vovan lu (3485 in chips)
Seat 7: TowMadder (10135 in chips)
Seat 8: vladimir91 (2655 in chips)
Seat 9: Aquarius754 (2190 in chips)
Seat 10: DouglasAD_68 (1475 in chips)
Aquarius754: posts small blind 50
DouglasAD_68: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DouglasAD_68 [Kc Kd]
DrAlexSyS: folds
XXXX53: folds
mach77seb has timed out
mach77seb: folds
mach77seb is sitting out
isseusse: calls 100
ssvveettaa79: folds
vovan lu: calls 100
TowMadder: calls 100
vladimir91: folds
Aquarius754: calls 50
DouglasAD_68: raises 600 to 700
isseusse: calls 600
vovan lu: calls 600
TowMadder: folds
Aquarius754: folds
*** FLOP *** [8h Js 4d]
DouglasAD_68: bets 775 and is all-in
isseusse: calls 775
vovan lu: folds
*** TURN *** [8h Js 4d] [Tc]
*** RIVER *** [8h Js 4d Tc] [9s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DouglasAD_68: shows [Kc Kd] (a pair of Kings)
isseusse: shows [9h Qs] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
isseusse collected 3850 from pot
DouglasAD_68 finished the tournament in 19209th place
bolt_1992 is connected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3850 | Rake 0
Board [8h Js 4d Tc 9s]
Seat 1: DrAlexSyS folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: XXXX53 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: mach77seb folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: isseusse showed [9h Qs] and won (3850) with a straight, Eight to Queen
Seat 5: ssvveettaa79 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: vovan lu folded on the Flop
Seat 7: TowMadder folded before Flop
Seat 8: vladimir91 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Aquarius754 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 10: DouglasAD_68 (big blind) showed [Kc Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings



reposting cause i put in wrong place earlier,,still learning even this it seems,,lol
 
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Sun Feb 06, 2011, 02:56 PM
(#2)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
You bet 1/2 of your stack pre-flop after four limpers. If anyone calls you have almost no fold equity post-flop. Next time just shove it all-in pre.
 
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Sun Feb 06, 2011, 03:23 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
You bet 1/2 of your stack pre-flop after four limpers. If anyone calls you have almost no fold equity post-flop. Next time just shove it all-in pre.
Agreed.

Realistically, when you are short, you WANT "action" on hands like KK. This means versus a single limper, you may want to raise an amount that "commits" you to shove on any flop, rather than open shoving and perhaps "losing" a caller. This would have been an "ok" spot to raise what you did, and shove on ANY flop.

But in this hand you have 4 limpers.

1: Those limpers makes the pot BIGGER than a mere pick up of the blinds/antes and a single limp, so winning the pot without a flop is much more lucrative for your stack.

2: The number of player in means a much BIGGER number of hands could see a flop that is ahead of your KK.

3: As Joe said, betting half your stack will not "deny" odds for anyone who calls your pre-flop raise, and flops an 8 or 9 out draw.

So...

All these factors add up to a situation where you no longer NEED to play "tricky" with your KK in order to get more value into the pot.

A pre-flop shove by you, versus 4 limpers, may well get you a single caller, and a much less "risky" chance to double than in a 4 way pot; even if you do not get a caller, all of those limps make the pot well worthwhile to take down with ZERO risk as well.

this argues for a pre-flop shove on this 14 BB stack, holding KK.
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 09:58 PM
(#4)
BakedSalmon's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 3
BronzeStar
You want KK to see cards HU if all possible so stick em' in there and lets
get rid of those limpers (fist pump if you get a call from 1 or 2
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 11:12 PM
(#5)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Question for JDean, or Joe, or whoever wants to answer. If TheLangolier is on, his opinion would be cool, too.

I see an alternative to this particular play (probably more of an alternative at the lower limits), and I'm wondering if a go-and-go would be a doable move? Specifically, raising to only 350 or so, then shoving on the flop? It has two benefits: First, it nets calling stations (which these players very well may be) into possibly donating their stacks if the flop hits them at all. Let's say the flop comes , then anyone with two hearts or a Q would very possibly come along for the ride. Since a smaller raise preflop would allow for the hero to make a formidable bet on the flop, weaker hands should be folding, so there's also the possibility to take down the pot for more chips then. The second benefit is the possibility for the hero to fold on any unfavourable flop, like , or .

I think it's definitely workable, but it comes with less assurance that you're getting in ahead. I think that means high variance, but if you're playing against limpers (who strike me as possible bad players for that reason alone), not necessarily bad play. Not sure if that's really the case, though. Position would help here, but the fact that the hero would be acting second at latest, with initiative, should help the go-and-go play.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 12:40 AM..
 
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Fri Feb 11, 2011, 06:15 AM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Question for JDean, or Joe, or whoever wants to answer. If TheLangolier is on, his opinion would be cool, too.

I see an alternative to this particular play (probably more of an alternative at the lower limits), and I'm wondering if a go-and-go would be a doable move? Specifically, raising to only 350 or so, then shoving on the flop? It has two benefits: First, it nets calling stations (which these players very well may be) into possibly donating their stacks if the flop hits them at all. Let's say the flop comes , then anyone with two hearts or a Q would very possibly come along for the ride. Since a smaller raise preflop would allow for the hero to make a formidable bet on the flop, weaker hands should be folding, so there's also the possibility to take down the pot for more chips then. The second benefit is the possibility for the hero to fold on any unfavourable flop, like , or .

I think it's definitely workable, but it comes with less assurance that you're getting in ahead. I think that means high variance, but if you're playing against limpers (who strike me as possible bad players for that reason alone), not necessarily bad play. Not sure if that's really the case, though. Position would help here, but the fact that the hero would be acting second at latest, with initiative, should help the go-and-go play.
Very good alternative with a go-go play.

A lot of times you will get a Station to "sheriff" you, and that may get the value in you want pre-flop, when they might have folded to a shove.

Realistically, with a hand like KK, you only need to sweat about an 8% chance or so for un-paired unders to out flop you, only about a 28% shot for an Ace to out run you if he sees ALL 5 cards, and an unde-pair is definately not something to fear.

About the WORST thing I can think of (short of a lesser hand banging the flop to take the lead) is letting something like suited connectors flop a draw. Even that though, is only going to happen around 22% of the time.

I don;t really see a problem with a go-go, and it can work nicely.

I'm more prone to the shove, simply because with the 4 limpers in already, you are probbly getting at least 1 call anyway, and you really do not want a LOT of callers. But if the table has a "clue" about the strength of a committing raise by a short stack, then a go-go can work.
 

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