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Bet Sizing

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Bet Sizing - Sun Feb 06, 2011, 07:58 PM
(#1)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I've been downsizing my open raises in sit & go's lately. Instead of 3x+ bets, I'm barely breaking 2 times the big blind, unless I feel like punishing some limpers, or jamming the pot when I'm short. I find that it's been having the same effect, and it might even be getting my opens more respect than normal. The best part is that it leaves me so much room to do some real poker playing. I can raise/fold so much more with smaller bets, because I have room to recover, and it seems to increase my reward when people decide to get clever and come over the top, because if I open raise or 3bet them light, I can set them up to take a real fall when I have a hand. I can also 4bet without going all-in, so I imagine that I can occasionally 4bet/fold if the stacks are deep enough.

Does anyone else have a betting pattern they like to stick to? Just curious if anyone wants to share ideas about how they size bets, so I might learn something new.
 
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Sun Feb 06, 2011, 08:04 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
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Last edited by Deleted user; Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 08:50 PM..
 
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Sun Feb 06, 2011, 08:21 PM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I like the donk lookalike strategy. I read in one of JDean's posts a few other reasons for that bet sizing. It really illustrates how subtle poker can be, and how deep you need to think about it to be able to play in a way that's ahead of the game.

Hey, Dirty, I just checked your profile. I never knew you lived so close. You're something like 18 blocks from where I live.
 
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Sun Feb 06, 2011, 08:55 PM
(#4)
john.duce's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 232
i have a lil button that i set to 2.5 and one set to 3... i never use the 3
 
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Small Ball - Sun Feb 06, 2011, 09:40 PM
(#5)
CDNHamster's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 63
I have been looking at a few of Daniel N (Kidpoker) videos and hes talking a lot about small ball strategy and how raising preflop and post flop ends up making you looking like your wreckless and a maniac while keeping ur opponents on edge and unable to read you but im not sure it works all that well online as ive run across a lot of 10X BB betters in the PSO league games. I will go 3X BB on decent hands and say 5 or 6 X BB on monsters
See ya on the tables cheers
Hamster
 
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Sun Feb 06, 2011, 10:05 PM
(#6)
john.duce's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDNHamster View Post
. I will go 3X BB on decent hands and say 5 or 6 X BB on monsters
See ya on the tables cheers
Hamster
i like to raise the same amount

technically, you should only be playing hands that you're willing to raise pre with anyways

not in EVERY situation, but i would say mostly
 
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Sun Feb 06, 2011, 10:21 PM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I see so many people at the tables get dealt their hand, open for 10x the big blind or something like that, then everyone folds, and they show a monster. Then I think to myself, 'You didn't need to show, 'cause we all knew what you had (or at least I did).'

I think if you raise 5x with big hands, it's exploitable. It means two things to your opponents: When you raise 5x, you have a big hand. When you raise 3x, you don't have a big hand. I generally raise the same amount for all my hands, but change the bet sizing situationally, on occasion. Most of the time, though, if I raise 2.5x with AA, and get 4 callers, then I just try and play it well post flop. I try not to make my raise sizing exploitable. If you raise bigger for bigger hands, that's exploitable.
 
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AA at 2.5 BB - Mon Feb 07, 2011, 12:08 AM
(#8)
CDNHamster's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 63
Only problem with that Panicky is some clown with 5 10 offsuite will call you or someone will hit 2 pair and bust you. 5x BB atleast makes them think a bit and you will still get some calling 5x BB with crap - we have all seen it.
cheers Hamster
 
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Mon Feb 07, 2011, 12:22 AM
(#9)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
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Unless you are 3 betting or shoving, there are almost no circumstances under which it is +EV to bet more than 3xBB.

Fact.
 
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Mon Feb 07, 2011, 12:41 AM
(#10)
ssuglia's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
Unless you are 3 betting or shoving, there are almost no circumstances under which it is +EV to bet more than 3xBB.

Fact.
This is so true that it deserves a...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
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Mon Feb 07, 2011, 04:43 AM
(#11)
Poncho Bowie's Avatar
Since: May 2010
Posts: 1,610
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This is an area where I still am unsure what to do

But I generally 3-4 x BB preflop, trying to get away from 2 x BB min raise because people will call with anything, 3xBB is donkey poker well I am a donkey I guess. I do 4BB a lot just because people will call with anything. I generally prefer to not get any action unless I have KK AA.

Post flop I generally bet 30% of pot for value or to see if they are going to call or not

or 70% of Pot if I think they will call and I have a hand.

or about 120% of pot if I have a hand and do not want them to draw out on me

All in tends to be a bluff with outs, I am working on changing this program though.

Flat call is for when I want to see the flop or the next card, and not get reraised.

I like to keep some chips in reserve rather than open shoving all in so I can try to bet someone off a pot on a later street, rather than letting the cards decide the outcome.

I heard that 4BB is a typical raise for AK and also one should raise the same amount with whatever so you cant be put on a particular hand or hand strength. Also I heard that you should change things up a bit, so preflop I tend to do a 3-4 BB raise if I am first to bet in a pot. I almost never limp preflop unless I have a pure drawing hand like JTs and I am in late position.

This 3BB+ raise is bad, is new to me and would like to hear more.

Early in a tournament with 1500 chips and 10 - 20 , 25 - 50 blinds I may bet 200 just so some dumass doesn't call with crap like 7 Ts like what happened earlier today in 1/4 mill sat, me with AK lucky me hit K on river and I cashed $11. Without the river I would have been done.

#BB bets just do not seem to count for much early in a tournament, so I tent to bet 100 - 200 until the blinds catch up.
.
.

Last edited by Poncho Bowie; Mon Feb 07, 2011 at 05:26 AM..
 
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Mon Feb 07, 2011, 05:22 AM
(#12)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
IMO, making your bets bigger isn't the correct way to deal with people who like to enter a pot with any two. When you bet preflop, unless you're attempting to steal, you should want (yes, you should) to get people to call. And the best kind of calls are the ones by people who call with anything. It may make them harder to put on a hand, but since their range is bigger, they're less likely to have anything and should be easy to get value from.

If you don't want people to call you preflop, then why are you betting 2BB or 3BB or 5BB or 10BB? Why not just jam the pot every time? I think stealing blinds is supposed to be a backup plan when you raise preflop, again, unless a steal is what you're trying to do. If you're not comfortable with your hand postflop because some donkey called you with , then you probably shouldn't have been raising with that hand to start. Just play the hands you think you should play, read the board well and try to recognize when your opponents hit big with their ATC hands (which will not be often), and you should be on your way to success.

Am I babbling on about nothing, or is this belief of mine actually logically cogent? Let me know what you think.
 
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Mon Feb 07, 2011, 08:35 AM
(#13)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
Unless you are 3 betting or shoving, there are almost no circumstances under which it is +EV to bet more than 3xBB.

Fact.
I will assume that you are referring to an opening bet of >3BB. If you have limpers ahead then betting more becomes standard.
 
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Mon Feb 07, 2011, 09:47 AM
(#14)
bahmani381's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtyrubberz View Post
2.1 - 2.3 is my range for bets.
But when I am playing a higher limit I do the 3xbb to make it look like I am a donk and it gets me more action.Once they stop biting,I change to the standard 2.3xbb
Ive noticed more and more players lowering the bet size from 3xbb to a lower increment.
You get a lot of copy cat type players that do it,not knowing why they do it.
hi dirty trying to understand this 3xbb makes you look like a donk?i thought 3xbb-4xbb was a normal bet.if your in early pos and do 2.1-2.3 with As Ks Qs your asking the table to stay in witch in turn gives more chances to bust your top pr.and if your in late pos with 3-4-5 players all ready in.same thing.
 
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Mon Feb 07, 2011, 10:06 AM
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roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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i just shove everything

 
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Mon Feb 07, 2011, 11:00 AM
(#16)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
I will assume that you are referring to an opening bet of >3BB. If you have limpers ahead then betting more becomes standard.
Correct sir. I was trying to keep it simple but after I posted I had a feeling that you or Lang might pop in to expand on the issue
 
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Mon Feb 07, 2011, 12:29 PM
(#17)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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If you think betting under 3xBB will have the same effect on the remaining players, then it may be worth doing to save yourself some chips and keep more options open. The problem with lowering your raise though, it increases the range of hands people can call you with. Sure if they get dealt 28o or KK your smaller than 3xBB bet will have been a good move. But, if they have K9s or something like that you might get called instead of just stealing the blinds. Your giving them better pot odds so expect more action. Also, the higher the blinds, the better your less than 3xBB bet probably is, since people will tighten up their calls, but probably loosen their pushing. So, maybe its a better late stage SNG/MTT betting stategy?
 
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Mon Feb 07, 2011, 01:04 PM
(#18)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockerguyAA View Post
The problem with lowering your raise though, it increases the range of hands people can call you with... Your giving them better pot odds so expect more action.
I think that's part of the point. You want action from weaker hands.
 
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Mon Feb 07, 2011, 02:22 PM
(#19)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
Unless you are 3 betting or shoving, there are almost no circumstances under which it is +EV to bet more than 3xBB.

Fact.
Betting "just" 3 BB lays AT LEAST 2.25 to 1 pot odds for the BB even without antes.

"Live cards" need only about a 33% chance to win to make entry into the pot "valid". 2.25 to 1 offers anyone with as little as about a 30% chance to win the "right" price. Strictly speaking, this is an "invitation" for the BB to enter the pot that is giving the proper odds.

See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundame...eorem_of_poker

Per Sklansky, any time you perform an action which causes an opponent to act in the same manner he would have if ALL the cards were known, you LOSE value. Since many hands which you may raise WILL give a random 2 card hand the "proper" price to see the flop, you are offering an opponent a POSITIVE EV call, and are costing yourself "value". You would probably need to bet more along the lines of 3.5 to 4 BB to deny these odds.

So strictly speaking, your statement is FALSE...

BUT...

Unless your bet size puts you all-in, or beyond a likely "committment point", a bet size of 4 BB+ has come to represent a "bloated" pot situation. In the more loose and aggressive (or you could say "opportunistic") MTT play of the current times, this pot bloating is seen as a ripe chance for a large re-steal. So launching in 3 BB, or less, is as likely to elicit the un-contested take down of the blinds and antes that you may WANT, or likely to elicit ONLY calls/re-raises by "strength", without "chumming the waters" for those who may re-steal light.

The true measure of the sizing of your pre-flop bets should now be taken as a function of your chosen APPROACH to strategic play of an MTT.

To Whit:

There are 2 general types of "strategic" thought regarding your pre-flop bet sizing: An "exploitative" and an "optimal" approach.

The exploitative approach is one which you seek out and adjust your play to perceived "weaknesses" in your opponents.
A good example of this would be raising MORE against a load of calling stations left to act, and/or when you have a "bigger" hand.
Since there are only CS players left, and since those CS are likely to CALL that larger pre-flop bet, you are giving yourself more potential "value" in the pot for your bigger hand.

The DRAWBACK of this, of course, is that you throw off "patterns" to your pre-flop bet sizing based upon the opponents you are facing, and the strength of your hand. So in essence, an Exploitative strategy approach seeks LARGER potential gains, in return for offering greater RISK of "counter-exploitation".

The optimal approach seeks to "disguise" the patterns which can lead to counter exploitation, usually thru use of a "standard" pre-flop raise size. It becomes VERY HARD to "exploit" an opponent when he raises AA and 33 in exactly the same way, see?

Of course the DRAWBACK of the optimal strategy is that you "give up" the ability to get calls of LARGER BETS from CS-type players, when you have a larger hand. The "cost" of your disception value from "standard" raise sizing is that in the "right" situations, you have LESS value in the pot.

So...

The difference between pre-flop raise sizing should REALLY be based upon your table dynamic.

If your table is a very "tight/passive" one, 4 BB+ pre-flop raises may be fine. They are unlikely to see much "play back" in a truly passive dynamic, and the addition of the "extra" BB in the pot from your larger raise can add up to a good sum if you can"steal" 2 or 3 pots on the flop. This larger raise means when you do get a caller, and you win the pot on the flop, it is highly likely the pots YOU win will be slightly LARGER than those won by your opponents at the table in the same manner; this adds up.

If your table is very LOOSE/AGGRESSIVE, then adopting a 2.25 to 2.5 BB "standard" pre-flop raise is probably better. This will allow you to more easily fold the hands you raise to "take a shot" if there IS play back,and if you are called (or call a re-raise) the pot is "smaller", thus less of a juicy target for steal tries by opponents. LAG players who are "good" LAGs, will also tend to "read" you better, thus if ANY raise agains you is going to "work", a small one is probably going to work as well as a larger one, without bieng a nice re-steal incentive.

If your table is full of "beginners", a middle road raise of about 3 BB is probably most "right". 3 BB doesnt make the pre-flop pot look as "fat" as 4 BB+, but it also can a decent amount of value in the pot. While it does not "deny odds" for the BB to come along with live cards, a table of "beginning" palyers should not contain a whole lot of "surprises" in terms of advanced plays; this means laying those odds is less likely to result in you being severely "out played".

So in large part, what is "correct" is what A) your table "gives you", and B) What you want to try to TAKE.

Last edited by JDean; Mon Feb 07, 2011 at 02:25 PM..
 
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Mon Feb 07, 2011, 02:27 PM
(#20)
bahmani381's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 329
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I think that's part of the point. You want action from weaker hands.
when you get action from the weaker hands that's a good thing.but when you let them see flop turn river more times then not your big hand will go down.
 

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