Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions / Old Hand Analysis Section /

Would appreciate some feedback on how i played this

 
Old
Default
Would appreciate some feedback on how i played this - Tue Feb 08, 2011, 10:10 AM
(#1)
JaksDaddy's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 5
BronzeStar
This was last night in the Pro Skills League tourney:

1st blind level (10/20) I'm dealt AQo/s in middle position everyone folds to me and i raise to 120. Next couple fold then The button raises to 290. Instead of doing a standard reraise which would have had me down to about half my stack i pushed all-in. It took him a while but he finally called and i was up against pocket 10's. He caught a 10 on the flop, Q came on turn, 7 on river, so i was out.

I'm not upset or feel like i got jipped, i was behind but had a decent chance of catching if he didn't catch that 10 on flop.

Basically, did i push too early? Even if i just called or re-raised, i would have been toast with that flop because i would have probably gone with a continuation bet being first in, and a low flop like that with 2 overs.

Gimme some feedback and let me know what you would have done. Thanks!
 
Old
Default
Tue Feb 08, 2011, 10:20 AM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
when the opponent re-raised your initial raise to 6BB, I would have immediately put them on a pocket pair or possibly AK suited. Either way, you're behind (best situation is a coin flip).

Since it was only the first level, I'd have mucked it to a re-raise... however that could easily change the later you get in a tourney.

If you just call their re-raise, I agree that you're done after the flop, because I'd have been making a sizable bet and called a raise too.
 
Old
Default
Tue Feb 08, 2011, 01:34 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaksDaddy View Post
This was last night in the Pro Skills League tourney:

1st blind level (10/20) I'm dealt AQo/s in middle position everyone folds to me and i raise to 120. Next couple fold then The button raises to 290. Instead of doing a standard reraise which would have had me down to about half my stack i pushed all-in. It took him a while but he finally called and i was up against pocket 10's. He caught a 10 on the flop, Q came on turn, 7 on river, so i was out.

I'm not upset or feel like i got jipped, i was behind but had a decent chance of catching if he didn't catch that 10 on flop.

Basically, did i push too early? Even if i just called or re-raised, i would have been toast with that flop because i would have probably gone with a continuation bet being first in, and a low flop like that with 2 overs.

Gimme some feedback and let me know what you would have done. Thanks!
Yes, you pushed it too hard, too early.

First:

Why are you open raising for 6 BB?

The ONLY reason to be raising 6 BB is because you want no one to call you pre-flop.

With the money being pretty "deep" at this point, a 6 BB raise really carries no more "fear factor" than a 2.5 BB to 4 BB raise (which is more "standard").

At the 10/20 blind level, this "over-raise" would net you a miniscule pot in relation to your start stack if you do get what you "want".

You hold a hand that while "decent", will MISS the flop roughly 2 times in 3, putting you in a "tough" spot more often than not.

Your over-bet BLOATS the pot; since all subsequent bets (especially your C-Bet) will now be LARGER (due to the 2 extra BB "bloating the pot), you are setting yourself up to lose even MORE if your obligatory C-Bet does NOT work.

So...

Had you held a hand like AA/KK/QQ, even JJ, you could "justify" this sort of open bet if a calling station may CALL behind you, thus adding more "value" for you. But with ANY un-paired start hand, you must be aware that 2/3rds of the time you will STILL have an un-paired hand. If you do NOT flop a pair, all your 6 BB open raise has done is cost you MORE (unless an opponent folds to your C-Bet).

Second:

As happened in the hand, if you are RE-RAISED, your 6 BB pre-flop raise makes it much harder to "give up" your hand.

Now AQ is decent, and so long as you have information that someone re-raising you will do so with a "range" of hands that gives you a good solid amount of "equity" to win, then there is really nothing "wrong" with your re-shove. BUT...

I am not so sure you HAD that sort of information, nor am I sure you USED that sort of information.

AQ is not really great when re-raised, since AK and pocket pairs make up the bulk of potential re-raise hands for any "reasonable" opponent. If you input as a likely "re-raise range" for the opponent as ANY pocket pair, any AK, AND any AQ, your AQo has only about 40.3% "equity" when you shove.

You see, when you are trying to determine whether you should call, or re-shove, or fold, you really must consider ALL the potential hands your opponent might have. That is called "ranging" your opponent. If you ONLY think "hmmmm, I think he has 88 or 99 here", you are NOT giving yourself the true picture; you are only considering hands he might have that CONFIRM what you already want to do.

In reality, very few players will re-raise a KQ, and even if they do, they will NOT call your shove. AJ is also a pretty LOOSE re-raise hand. AK IS a re-raise hand for many people, as are pocket pairs. Many people over value AQ as well, so we may want to put that into your opponent's "range".

So without any PARTICULAR "read" that says an opponent may raise exceedingly "light" to STEAL your big over-bet, we really must put him on a pretty "narrow" range. Making things worse is the fact our AQo is at the BOTTOM of this narrow re-raise range. All the pocket pairs are ahead of us, as is the AK; only the AQo is equal to us. YUCK.

Read up on "the gap concept in poker".

So when an opponent re-raises you, and you hold a hand that is not really going to be "good" against a lot of his range, you MAY have been better off folding, rather than putting your entire tourney at risk in what figured to be, AT BEST, a "race". but then...

you ahd made the 6 BB over raise to open, didn't you? ;-)
 
Old
Default
Tue Feb 08, 2011, 02:00 PM
(#4)
JaksDaddy's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 5
BronzeStar
Thanks for the replies guys. This was my purpose was to be critiqued and i appreciate that.

I agree that i pushed too early. I normally don't raise more than 4 BB, but 4BB would have been 80, and pretty much the whole table seems to call an 80 bet at low levels with crap. So my thinking on going 6BB is it might get more hands to fold and give me a better idea of what people were holding. When he re-raised me, i did not have much information to go on since it was so early. My hope was that if i went over the top, he would put me on a high pocket pair and fold. Which i think he was about to do, but made a good (or at least right call for this hand) with the pocket 10's.

Again i appreciate your thoughts and will hopefully make a better play in similar situations.
 
Old
Default
Tue Feb 08, 2011, 02:00 PM
(#5)
ClubbedNuts's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 61
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaksDaddy View Post
This was last night in the Pro Skills League tourney:

1st blind level (10/20) I'm dealt AQo/s in middle position everyone folds to me and i raise to 120. Next couple fold then The button raises to 290. Instead of doing a standard reraise which would have had me down to about half my stack i pushed all-in. It took him a while but he finally called and i was up against pocket 10's. He caught a 10 on the flop, Q came on turn, 7 on river, so i was out.

I'm not upset or feel like i got jipped, i was behind but had a decent chance of catching if he didn't catch that 10 on flop.

Basically, did i push too early? Even if i just called or re-raised, i would have been toast with that flop because i would have probably gone with a continuation bet being first in, and a low flop like that with 2 overs.

Gimme some feedback and let me know what you would have done. Thanks!
This is definitely asking for trouble so early in the tourney.. From my experiences there is a general tendency to have your large raise called/re-raised pre-flop, especially when betting into a fairly large amount of players.. Granted, many players do so w/ much worse hands, the risk, IMO, out-weighs the reward.. Your opponent re-raising in this situation should've been your first clue to slow down your play, especially being out of position.. At ther very most, a simple call is in order here.. Your bloating of the pot instantly makes you more committed and less likely to muck your holdings should your opponent produce more action, especially on a c-bet.. It's a tough break, and a lesson I learned the hard way not too long ago.. I've learned to be patient, and know when to fold, even if I have strong cards.. Take note of your opponents' play, and adjust accordingly.. Good luck..
 
Old
Default
Tue Feb 08, 2011, 02:58 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
I agree with JDean, this is an easy fold to the reraise pre, his range for calling your shove is probably TT+ and AK, which is crushing you, and his 3b rainge over an unecessarily large preflop open is probably equally as tight or close to it.

There's no need to inflate the pot by betting 6x wtih a hand that will miss the flop 2/3rds of the time. I genearlly open to 50ish (2.5x) at this level and my goal is to keep the pot small. If people want to call with garbage that's fine with me, they're not going to get my stack though unless I flop a really strong hand. We'd like to get some value for our AQ but when we're 75 bb's deep to start the hand, that's usually going to involve some measure of pot control, and inflating the pot with larger than normal bets takes us in the opposite direction. And, we have to be able to get away from it when we're beat.
 
Old
Default
Tue Feb 08, 2011, 04:17 PM
(#7)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Amazingly detailed responses here. Was expecting to see "Of course AQo was not good there." kind of line and thats it. I know where to turn now for advice if I find myself in a questionable position in the future

I just wanted to add that trying to compensate for other players mistakes by making mistakes yourself is not the way to go. Standard raise would have worked much better that hand, easy fold to reraise and if you get a lot of callers just proceed with extreme caution, even if you hit the flop. Limping or folding when it first got to you would have been mistakes as well that hand.
 
Old
Default
Tue Feb 08, 2011, 09:29 PM
(#8)
JaksDaddy's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 5
BronzeStar
Rockerguy- I completely agree, i'm very happy with the responses. It's very helpful.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com