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adivce?

 
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adivce? - Wed Feb 09, 2011, 10:55 PM
(#1)
UM_YEH?'s Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 11
BronzeStar
Early in pso, just moved tables, 2nd hand at the table, would it have been better to fold and gain some insight?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 0 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

CO (t3340)
Button (t3775)
SB (t3530)
BB (t1250)
UTG (t3725)
UTG+1 (t1446)
Hero (MP1) (t1675)
MP2 (t4754)
MP3 (t1775)

Hero's M: 11.17

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 10, 10
UTG bets t300, 1 fold, Hero calls t300, 6 folds

Flop: (t750) 9, K, 10 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets t325, UTG raises to t1200, Hero raises to t1375 (All-In), UTG calls t175

Turn: (t3500) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3500) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t3500

Last edited by UM_YEH?; Wed Feb 09, 2011 at 11:40 PM.. Reason: no results for hand
 
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Wed Feb 09, 2011, 11:23 PM
(#2)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
FOLD AFTER BEING RERAISED ALL IN oops sorry for caps lol you rep a strong hand and he shoves over top repping AA KK or QQ all of which beat you .... but you hit your set so it is real hard to get away from it... I know I would be broke after it too lol


Ps its better to leave out the results... they tend to skew the analysis
 
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Wed Feb 09, 2011, 11:51 PM
(#3)
R1J1J's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 143
BronzeStar
Bad beat. post flop

Preflop your not deep enough to set mine. You need to make 15x what you have to call.
300(15)=4500 and you only have 1675. It comes down to the other players PFR (Preflop flop raise %). With your stack size I would be thinking of a shove but it depends on what kind a hands will call you.

Last edited by R1J1J; Thu Feb 10, 2011 at 10:43 AM..
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 12:01 AM
(#4)
R1J1J's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 143
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
FOLD AFTER BEING RERAISED ALL IN oops sorry for caps lol you rep a strong hand and he shoves over top repping AA KK or QQ all of which beat you .... but you hit your set so it is real hard to get away from it... I know I would be broke after it too lol


Ps its better to leave out the results... they tend to skew the analysis
Ok

1st of all how does AA or QQ beat 3T's?

2nd What about AK?

3rd set over set doesn't happen all that often

4th we don't know the other persons range.

5th Lets look at that range and see how we do.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

14,850 games 0.005 secs 2,970,000 games/sec

Board: 9h Ks Ts
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.970% 66.65% 00.32% 9897 48.00 { TcTh }
Hand 1: 33.030% 32.71% 00.32% 4857 48.00 { QQ+ }

So we should not be folding post flop vs that range.

Last edited by R1J1J; Thu Feb 10, 2011 at 12:06 AM..
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 12:36 AM
(#5)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
This is a textbook preflop reship scenario. Even, if not especially, without any information on your opponents, you should probably have just gone all-in preflop. The important point is your stack size. With Less than 20BB you should generally always be thinking of possibly going all-in at any point when you have an edge, and looking for ways to chip up fast. You need to chip up soon, or the blinds will eat you alive when they increase.

When somebody raises in front of you and you have this stack size, just take any hand that rates to be the best at the moment and ship it. You can even ship with some weaker hands if the table is tight (but we don't know that here, like you said), and especially if you think the original raiser is playing loose (but again, we don't know here). There are times when it might be better not to ship it, but like R said, if you call, you're really only looking for one of the two remaining 10's in the deck, and they're probably not going to come. Before the flop, you have the best chance of getting your opponents' chips in while you're likely ahead. After the flop, they're less likely to put their chips in unless they hit the board pretty hard. The other very possible outcome is that everyone will fold, in which case you still get chips.
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 12:52 AM
(#6)
R1J1J's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 143
BronzeStar
EDIT

Bottom

Last edited by R1J1J; Thu Feb 10, 2011 at 10:44 AM..
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 01:30 AM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I would strongly consider reshipping TT against somebody who raised UTG with a PFR of 5%, even if I knew for a fact that I had no fold equity at all. But short of information, wouldn't you auto-ship this on your 2nd hand after being moved to the table? Props for taking time to think about it first, since that's never a bad idea. But with an M of roughly 10, these are probably going to be the best hole cards you'd be dealt before you're blinded out.

The big thing is the fold equity, though. 3betting all-in with a reship stack tends to get a lot of it. With an M of 10, you have enough chips to cripple anybody who calls and loses, regardless of the pot odds offered, and especially so at this table where everyone is short. You'd only be behind JJ-AA, which gives you a very likely best odds to win scenario if you're only called by one person (which of course isn't guaranteed). The fold equity here should be pretty sizable, even in a freeroll. Raise-Reraise action should get respect.

I am getting a bit carried away, though. If this was the Skill League, then folding here might have actually been better than shoving. If you're trying to get into the money and you're not far, then by all means avoid the marginal situations. I do think, though, that calling was probably the least optimal decision preflop. Does anyone agree with that?
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 09:10 AM
(#8)
R1J1J's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 143
BronzeStar
PRF of 5%

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

647,250,912 games 0.624 secs 1,037,261,076 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.255% 43.30% 00.96% 280227552 6216198.00 { TT }
Hand 1: 55.745% 54.78% 00.96% 354590964 6216198.00 { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }

Your behind which is why I said that but your odds and stack size would make it an auto shove. Your only a 1.27:1 dog. A range of TT+ would make you a 4:1 dog so a PFR of 2.3 or lower but if AK is in that range then it will end up being a call again. Bottom line is this is not just an auto shove. With about 20% equity they would have to fold 60% of the time but TT+ isn't likely to do that are they? So as I was trying to say it comes down to the other persons range. If he had more chips he could call vs this range just to set min but he doesn't.

Last edited by R1J1J; Thu Feb 10, 2011 at 10:41 AM..
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 12:59 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
To do "well" in the PSO, it is ALL about RISK AVOIDANCE.

This means if there is ANY possibility you are beat, fold; find a better spot.

This is only true due to the cumulative nature of the scoring system, and is entirely artificial; but it is what it is.

A) You are at the 50/100 level, and are no where near the positive points.
B) You are on a non-nut hand, with a bet and a raise in front of you.
C) "Best Case" is that you are ahead, but at least one of these opponents is drawing to about a 36% shot to beat you (a flush hit, with no board pair coming).

FOLD THE SET HERE, get to plus points, then do what you did.

Now...

This is NOT "good" for any other event. What you did is what I probably do in 99 out of 100 cases in a "real money" MTT. PSO is a different animal though...

First: ALL your monthly scores work together. If you are early in the month, or on a "low" score, this move is not nearly as bad, bu if your score is higher, ANY bust short of plus points is difficult to re-coup.

Second: The "benefit" you get from this double here is not necessarily "enough" to propel you to the money. Under the old pay outs of 12.5% (as a minimum), a single double MAY have been enough to money, with with the switch to a 10% pay out, it is not going to do it for you anymore. This means you are risking a bust on negative points, with no "surety" that the additional chips you get will get you a significant positive score. risk/Reward balance is VITAL in PSO play, and far different than in a standard MTT.
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 02:40 PM
(#10)
R1J1J's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 143
BronzeStar
NIT

By the way he was HU it wasn't 3 handed. A fold is just bad. Yeah listen to him if want to lose money. His rank is 9855. Limp/calling UGT with 99 and then donking it off with a weak middle pair after a preflop raise. Like I said no post flop skills.






Give me my ban! I can't hang out with Azz clowns. You can't even spell poker. Lock it up bi ch!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0SNlURIURA

Last edited by R1J1J; Thu Feb 10, 2011 at 03:19 PM..
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 03:31 PM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by R1J1J View Post
NIT

By the way he was HU it wasn't 3 handed. A fold is just bad. Yeah listen to him if want to lose money. His rank is 9855. Limp/calling UGT with 99 and then donking it off with a weak middle pair after a preflop raise. Like I said no post flop skills.






Give me my ban! I can't hang out with Azz clowns. You can't even spell poker. Lock it up bi ch!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0SNlURIURA
You know nothing about me, nor do you know anything about the PSO league.

If you do NOT have a high score yet Um_Yeah, this is a fine spot to make the call, and your shove is even better. This is true up thru about the 1769 point level, as a ITM at the "typical" bust short of the plus points (at the 50th percentile) can still off-set 2+ negative finishes. ABOVE this level, you nor longer off-set 2 mid finishes with a cash; NO ONE can expect to money in 50% of the large field MTTs they play, so losing points at a rate you cannot off-set the loss is BADfor your score advancement.

I did mis-read the action, there is a check raise here, not a bet and a raise. Sorry 'bout that!

It doesn't change anything that I said: this is a situation where you are on a non-nut hand, and someone has essentially bet enough to put you all in. In a PSO event, if you are playing for score, FOLD. Keep your remaining chips and wait for a better spot.

If you are working on your game to improve your overall poker skill in REGULAR MTT, you did the exact right thing. But if you are playing for League Rank, you gotta fold.
 
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Thu Feb 10, 2011, 03:39 PM
(#12)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I still think the wrong choice was made preflop, but I agree with J about the postflop action.
 

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