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All-In in MTT Early Stage

 
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All-In in MTT Early Stage - Sun Feb 13, 2011, 05:07 PM
(#1)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
This is one of my not-unusual over-the-top plays that often get me into trouble. I don't remember how long the villain had been at the table, but I only remember seeing them shove pre-flop. They were pretty tight, but seemed to be on a push-or-fold strategy. Before this hand, I hadn't identified that, though. I just thought they were really jittery.

Was this a spot where I should have obviously folded, because playing for this many chips was just unnecessary? Or was it a legitimate spot to try and take a dominating chip lead? Had I won, I would easily have had means to bully the table when the antes kicked in. Had I lost, I would have become a 25ishBB stack.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 11 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Panicky (UTG+1) (t5295)
MP1 (t3225)
MP2 (t2300)
MP3 (t2720)
CO (t2970)
Button (t3450)
SB (t240)
BB (t2850)
Villain (UTG) (t2715)

Panicky's M: 35.30

Preflop: Panicky is UTG+1 with K, A
Villain bets t2715 (All-In), Panicky raises to t5295 (All-In), 7 folds

Total pot: t5580
 
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Sun Feb 13, 2011, 05:56 PM
(#2)
JT_Sooooted's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,407
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
This is one of my not-unusual over-the-top plays that often get me into trouble. I don't remember how long the villain had been at the table, but I only remember seeing them shove pre-flop. They were pretty tight, but seemed to be on a push-or-fold strategy. Before this hand, I hadn't identified that, though. I just thought they were really jittery.

Was this a spot where I should have obviously folded, because playing for this many chips was just unnecessary? Or was it a legitimate spot to try and take a dominating chip lead? Had I won, I would easily have had means to bully the table when the antes kicked in. Had I lost, I would have become a 25ishBB stack.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 11 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Panicky (UTG+1) (t5295)
MP1 (t3225)
MP2 (t2300)
MP3 (t2720)
CO (t2970)
Button (t3450)
SB (t240)
BB (t2850)
Villain (UTG) (t2715)

Panicky's M: 35.30

Preflop: Panicky is UTG+1 with K, A
Villain bets t2715 (All-In), Panicky raises to t5295 (All-In), 7 folds

Total pot: t5580
This very common with online play. The ole AK is going to make the same move here 98% of the time. The tourney stage doesn't matter. Once a player becomes good enough to enjoy the chips they have accumlated to this point. They can easily fold here. Hopefully, you won. However, that isn't important. What is important is that we understand that one can NOT win the tourney at this point. We can only LOSE it.

JT
 
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Sun Feb 13, 2011, 06:12 PM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
You seem to be saying that my play was bad because I stood to lose far more T equity than I stood to gain. That's true (I think), but by that logic, making the same play with would also be sucky. I disagree with that logic. I think shoving here would be good with certain hands.

Also, I disagree with the implication that I'm just an everyday weak player who jams the pot every time I see . I thought that I was flipping against, or ahead of, most hands in my opponent's range, and I didn't think a call from behind was really likely from many hands that beat me at this point.

If you could explain in more detail, I'd appreciate it.
 
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Sun Feb 13, 2011, 06:38 PM
(#4)
JT_Sooooted's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,407
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
You seem to be saying that my play was bad because I stood to lose far more T equity than I stood to gain. That's true (I think), but by that logic, making the same play with would also be sucky. I disagree with that logic. I think shoving here would be good with certain hands.

Also, I disagree with the implication that I'm just an everyday weak player who jams the pot every time I see . I thought that I was flipping against, or ahead of, most hands in my opponent's range, and I didn't think a call from behind was really likely from many hands that beat me at this point.

If you could explain in more detail, I'd appreciate it.
I am not commenting on your play specifically. I am saying that players in generally will be shipping it with AK here. However, when you have seen as many hands as I have. You will be able to lay this in this spot. Nothing bad about your play. If you are willing to risk your stack here, so be it. It is upto each individual. Nothing personal at all. Just let me know what happens.

Thx
JT
 
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Sun Feb 13, 2011, 06:49 PM
(#5)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Okay. The villain had and flopped a set. I lost.

Considering that I was likely not even getting good odds here, it was probably just a bad play. I'm wondering if your low-variance election to fold is just better, and not really a matter of personal style. I would have really benefited from the chip gain, I think, but it wasn't really a kick-butt spot to stick it in.
 
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Sun Feb 13, 2011, 07:00 PM
(#6)
JT_Sooooted's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,407
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Okay. The villain had and flopped a set. I lost.

Considering that I was likely not even getting good odds here, it was probably just a bad play. I'm wondering if your low-variance election to fold is just better, and not really a matter of personal style. I would have really benefited from the chip gain, I think, but it wasn't really a kick-butt spot to stick it in.
This is more the way you need to be thinking in early stages in this post. Why risk it against anything here? Wait for a better spot if you just want to ship it. No odds and you have no idea where your hand is at this point. At best, you have him dominated and we all know how the 3 outters go on here. At worst, he has you dominated and you won't catch up anyway. All a matter of one's thinking. Learn from it and make the move to correct it. That easy.

GL
JT
 
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Sun Feb 13, 2011, 09:03 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Need Range read n the Villain tbh.

Do you HAVE to call here: no. You do not need a race, and if he has a small or medium pp, that is exactly what you have.

Do you HAVE to fold here: Again, no. This isn't a PSO, and you probably do not benefit hugely from ladder climbing.

So...

The operative thing to consider is your table "Q", the amount you have left if you lose in relation to the rest table. It is also improtant to know the relative STRENGTH of your hand if you get to see all 5.

On the first point, I think you know, or knew, that a loss here does not "kill" you for play-ability at your table. It does, however, double up the open shover and essentially casues you to "swap stacks" with him. There will also be one other player who could knock you out with his stack (if you lose).

In these sorts of "decisions", I usually have to consider what I believe my "edge" in skill is on my opponents:

If I am BETTER than they are, then I really do not want to give a potential "race" to one of them for a large portion of my stack. Doing so actually REDUCES my post-flop play-ability versus them, and causes me to cede much of the skill advantage I probably perceive myself as having. Operative thought: "Never give a sucker an even break".

If the table has many good players at it, then I think entirely differently: I am not going to get a whole lot of chances to get all in as good as a "race", and I run a strong chance of excessive post-flop play being to my DETRIMENT. In this case, I probably WANT to play bigger pots with closer "edges", if for no other reason than to quickly build my "cushion" for potential future "mistakes".

As for the STRENGTH of AK, it is not a "terrible" hand with which to call an all-in so long as if you LOSE, you still have a decently workable stack. I say this because...

1) AK BENEFITS by increased "value" when it "knows" it will see all 5 cards. This facet gives AK max chance to make a top/top hand, and is far different from calling a large pre-flop raise and taking the chance of MISSING the flop roughly 2/3rds the time.

2) If AK gets to see all 5, then it really only "fears" 2 hands- AA/KK. It has roughly 50% chance to hit a pair by the river that will beat ANY pp more often than not.

You know this though I'm sure...

So this is one of those "wierd" situations where you really cannot go FAR "wrong"...

The IMPORTANT thing is that you are "aware" of the implications of your decision. If you do not exercise "right thinking" to consider all those implications, you may hastily rush into a decision that is NOT "the best".

I am NOT saying I would necessarily snap call with AK (see my first line), but the amount you have left if you lose is "enough" to re-coup on, and if you win, you have a much greater ability to out-last "mistakes".

So it is pretty much up to your persoanl risk assessment, and what you think about your ability to play on with a loss OR a win...

Last edited by JDean; Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 09:08 PM..
 
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Sun Feb 13, 2011, 09:41 PM
(#8)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Alright. Glad to hear that my thinking was somewhat good. I didn't consider a skill edge here, although I was quite clear of the implications of my move. I'm still a little frustrated though, because I feel as though I did misplay. I guess I'm starting to move away from my preference to play the preflop shove game, and I'm starting to prefer post-flop play. I don't know. But I'll have more to think about next time I'm in this spot.
 
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Sun Feb 13, 2011, 09:57 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Alright. Glad to hear that my thinking was somewhat good. I didn't consider a skill edge here, although I was quite clear of the implications of my move. I'm still a little frustrated though, because I feel as though I did misplay. I guess I'm starting to move away from my preference to play the preflop shove game, and I'm starting to prefer post-flop play. I don't know. But I'll have more to think about next time I'm in this spot.
Yeah Panicky...

You didnt do anything TERRIBLE (altho had this been a PSO, your decision is far "worse")...

If you want to check out You Tube, and look up some of the big hands Jerry Yang played, that is a nice example of someone being "aware" that his opponents may well have a skill edge, and thus someone who found great BENEFIT in large pre-flop chip moves.

Darvin Moon is another guy who ran deep using a lot of those thoughts...

Joe Hachem is a good guy to look at if you are on the OTHER end of the spectrum.

Take a gander at some of the plays each made, and look at the way they moved their chips to accumulate their stacks. That may give you some idea of what I'm driving at.

(BTW: of note, and the PSO Vegas Convention in 07, Someone asked TJ Cloutier who of the recent WSOP ME winners he thought was the "best" overall MTT player. TJ answered: Raymer is a good "amateur" but not quite to the level of top pro's. Gold, Moneymaker, and Varkonyi were all very lucky, and Hachem is by FAR the "best" of that group overall).
 

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