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Very Strange Email from PS

Old
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Very Strange Email from PS - Tue Feb 15, 2011, 07:11 PM
(#1)
sharkatack89's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 536
BronzeStar
So, I was looking up my new 4 star status and noticed I had to earn it again for next month. I inquired into this as I was told I'd be good w/ my new bling til the end of next month. yay!. I got this email in response. I'm sure it's a mistake but, thought it was an interesting read. Qualify with,
I have never complained of bad beats nor, ever judged the rng, ps's shuffle, or integrity of the the games on PS.

Here it is:

Thank you for your email.

We are sorry to hear you have had a few bad beats recently. However,
please keep in mind that bad beats are a part of poker, and happen
to all players, whether they play poker in a live casino, at a
friend's house, or online at PokerStars.

PokerStars deals the cards in a fair and honest manner. Once the
deck is shuffled, it is set, and the order in which the cards are
dealt cannot be changed. The software that shuffles and deals the
cards cannot control who wins and loses; it just deals the cards and
the rest is up to the players in the game.

Our software produces a shuffle that is completely random, which
favors no player over any other. The methods we use ensure complete
randomization of the cards, and complete unpredictability of the
cards to come. You can see the description of these methods at:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/features/security/

We arranged for the largest consulting firm specializing in software
security and quality, Cigital, to review PokerStars' shuffle. Their
investigation found the shuffling be fair and random. You may read
about their analysis at:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/rng/

We encourage you to review your own hand histories and to perform
your own analysis. We have dealt over 50 billion hands and freely
give real money hand histories any time someone requests them. If
you want, we can send you a copy of every single real money hand
history that you have played.

*Every* proper investigation of our shuffle has found the same
thing: That our cards are randomly shuffled. Many who have conducted
such studies have posted their findings to the Internet. You can
find two of them here:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...77010a4879f4c6
b

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...0082dfe67dc4a7
f?hl=en&

We hope this information helps you to understand that PokerStars'
games are fair. We value all of our players, and take the integrity
of our site very seriously.

Regards,

Larry
PokerStars Support Team
 
Old
Default
Tue Feb 15, 2011, 09:37 PM
(#2)
o0o0AcEo0o0's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 218
BronzeStar
Was probably a mix up email that was supposed to get sent to one of the thousands newbs that cry to pstars about bad beats ....
 
Old
Default
Tue Feb 15, 2011, 10:36 PM
(#3)
VERDUGO77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 294
BronzeStar
When you get the proper email please share that with us too.
 
Old
Default
Wed Feb 16, 2011, 02:25 AM
(#4)
spike8998's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
very strange
 
Old
Default
Wed Feb 16, 2011, 04:06 AM
(#5)
RedLetterman's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 665
From PS's RNG creator.....

Unfortunately, this definition is not very useful, as it is not possible in practice to produce and process infinite sequences. In the case of a finite sequence of numbers, it is formally impossible to verify whether it is random or not. It is only possible to check that it shares the statistical properties of a random sequence – like the equiprobability of all numbers –

From PokerStars.....
PokerStars deals the cards in a fair and honest manner. Once the deck is shuffled, it is set,..............

I find the aforementioned confusing when I read the following:

A letter from pokerstars to a player....
Please understand that if there is a low probability of any event happening
that this does not mean it is impossible. The chance of picking an Ace out of a deck of 52 cards, four times in-a-row (provided that you reshuffle the cards after each time you pull a card out) is ((4/52)^4) or .0035%. However, if someone tried this one million times, mathematically, they would expect to pick Aces out four times
in-a-row around 35 times! Poker discussion forums are full of unsubstantiated reports from players who claim that they have been cheated by "rigged sites", and other such unrealistic concepts. However, we prefer it when players ask us software integrity questions, as it gives us an opportunity to respond and set their minds at ease.

Since you mentioned hacking, please do not be concerned. No player is able
to know what cards are coming, what your cards are, or is able to manipulate
the dealing software. That information is simply NOT AVAILABLE. It is only
sent from our servers at the instant the information needs to be shown on
screen, (because the deck isn't set pre deal?) and cannot be requested ahead of time.
Regards,

Teymour
PokerStars Support Team

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/features/security/

We arranged for the largest consulting firm specializing in software
security and quality, Cigital, to review PokerStars' shuffle. Their
investigation found the shuffling be fair and random. You may read
about their analysis at:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/rng/

We encourage you to review your own hand histories and to perform
your own analysis. We have dealt over 50 billion hands and freely
give real money hand histories any time someone requests them. If
you want, we can send you a copy of every single real money hand
history that you have played.

*Every* proper investigation of our shuffle has found the same
thing: That our cards are randomly shuffled. Many who have conducted
such studies have posted their findings to the Internet. You can
find two of them here:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...77010a4879f4c6
b

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...0082dfe67dc4a7
f?hl=en&

Aforementioned sites unavailable.............

We hope this information helps you to understand that PokerStars' games are fair. We value all of our players, and take the integrity of our site very seriously.

Regards,

Larry


We understand that a use of a fair and unpredictable shuffle algorithm is critical to our software. To ensure this and avoid major problems described in [2], we are using two independent sources of truly random data:
  • user input, including summary of mouse movements and events timing, collected from client software Not a snowball's chance in hell they can detect your mouse movement unless it includes the slider or a click / unclick on the active commands.
  • Quantis [3], a true hardware random number generator developed by Swiss-based company ID Quantique, which uses quantum randomness as an entropy source
From Quantum: Please understand that if there is a low probability of any event happening that this does not mean it is impossible. The chance of picking an Ace out of a deck of 52 cards, four times in-a-row (provided that you reshuffle the cards after each time you pull a card out) is ((4/52)^4) or .0035%. Reshuffle sound like a set deck to anyone here?
However, if someone tried this one million times, mathematically, they would expect to pick Aces out four times in-a-row around 35 times! Poker discussion forums are full of unsubstantiated reports from players who claim that they have been cheated by "rigged sites", and other such unrealistic concepts. However we prefer it when players ask us software integrity questions, as it gives us an opportunity to respond and set their minds at ease.

Regards,

Teymour
PokerStars Support Team:

Each of these sources itself generates enough entropy to ensure a fair and unpredictable shuffle.

Shuffle Highlights:


  • A deck of 52 cards can be shuffled in 52! ways. 52! is about 2^225 (to be precise, 80,658,175,170,943,878,571,660,636,856,404,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000 ways). We use 249 random bits from both entropy sources (user input and quantum randomness) to achieve an even and unpredictable statistical distribution.
  • Furthermore, we apply conservative rules to enforce the required degree of randomness; for instance, if user input does not generate required amount of entropy, we do not start the next hand until we obtain the required amount of entropy from the Quantis RNG.
  • We use the SHA-1 cryptographic hash algorithm to mix the entropy gathered from both sources to provide an extra level of security
PokerStars shuffle verified by Cigital

PokerStars submitted extensive information about the PokerStars random number generator (RNG) to Cigital. We asked this trusted resource to perform an in-depth analysis of the randomness of the output of the RNG, and its implementation in the shuffling of the cards on PokerStars. They were given full access to the source code and confirmed the randomness and security of our shuffle. Visit the Online Poker Random Number Generator for more details.


PokerStars Support Team

cigital.com
Certification of Security Random Number Generator
19 March, 2010

Cigital, Inc., a leading software security consultancy, was contracted on behalf of PokerStars to evaluate a representative random number generating system consisting of a hardware random number generator (RNG) and related software.

1.0 Testing
Cigital, Inc. obtained random number generation hardware direct from the manufacturer and software source code from PokerStars. Sample output was gathered and tested under controlled conditions at Cigital’s labs in Dulles, Virginia, USA. Output of the random number generator was tested using two well-known test suites: the statistical randomness test suite from the U.S. National Institute
of Standards and Technology (NIST) and the DIEHARD statistical randomness tests. Cigital analysts also performed manual review of the source code related to the use of the RNG and its output.

2.0 Findings
Cigital bases its determination on the results of the statistical tests and the inspection of source code. Cigital certifies that the RNG used by PokerStars produces unpredictable and statistically random sequences that are used to generate the hands dealt on PokerStars.com. Cigital found that the Poker- Stars implementation adheres to current best practices in generating random seed values. Source code
analysis did not produce any evidence of improper calculations using the random numbers
or misuse that would introduce predictability or bias.


Thinking an 8 of clubs on the river to give the bigger stack a come from behind win would only look like 1001110001111001.

3.0 Validity
This determination of statistical randomness does not extend beyond the software and hardware components examined. These results pertain only to systems composed of the hardware and software that were tested when they are operated in the manner described to Cigital during the evaluation.

4.0 Expiration
This certification expires 31 December, 2012 or when a material change is made to the components of the system that were the subject of this evaluation.

Certification Recorded by:
Paco Hope
Technical Manager, Gaming Services
Cigital, Inc.

I believe they cannot at the moment be hacked. Maybe in 10 years. I also believe RNG has not yet been perfected. Maybe in 10 years we'll have a true deck pre set prior to flop..........

Employees in any organization tell you what they are told to tell you; make public those texts prepared in advance for just that reason. Compartmentalize. It's the corporate way

(I do not think individuals at PS can control who wins and who doesn't. Period. That said, it doesn't mean I don't have questions regarding the RNG. Cereus uses background noise for entropy. PS uses mouse movements and the clock? One day we'll get it right.
 

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