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Early Stage Post-flop Call All-in w/ A-Q

 
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Early Stage Post-flop Call All-in w/ A-Q - Thu Feb 17, 2011, 12:00 AM
(#1)
ClubbedNuts's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 61
BronzeStar
I wanted to post this and recieve some feedback regarding my play and whether or not it is a wise decision.. It's fairly early in my last PSO SL tourney; 8pm I believe.. I played a couple of hands early and took on some risk w/ relatively strong holdings that didn't pan out well post-flop.. I was, however, fortunate enough to get a nice bump by having the same hole cards maybe two hands prior and doubled up in a heads-up confrontation w/ the BB.. The villian in question here had made some remarks earlier to another player about his play, of whom I defended.. That banter quickly turned in my direction shortly there-after..

Taking into conideration the previous play of the villian it came as no suprise to see a call from him here.. I was indeed trying to steal the blinds and the three limpers' bets to add some juice to my stack again, but I felt pretty good about my chances if the villian did call.. I had been playing a little looser than what I'm used to which is why my stack got cut nearly in half prior to doubling-up, although I tightened once my stack dropped to ~t 860.. The villian had been relatively loose and I was trying to punish him for frequent limps and pre-flop raises w/ arguably marginal hands..

One of the reasons that I'm looking for feedback here is because I've made a few adjustments to my game and thus far it's been pretty effective; although pushing all of my chips to the middle so early is not one of my adjustments -it just so happened to be in this case.. I observed the number of outs that I had here and was confident that anyone of them gave me the nuts.. I'll be happy to post the hand results later, but I wish to not bias any comments for the time being..

Thanks in advance for the help and comments..


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 0 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (CO) (t1750)
Button (t1645)
SB (t1140)
BB (t1735)
UTG (t1280)
UTG+1 (t2800)
MP1 (t1020)
MP2 (t346)
MP3 (t1840)

Hero's M: 11.67

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, A
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t100, 1 fold, MP2 calls t100, MP3 calls t100, Hero bets t800, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls t700, 2 folds

Flop: (t1950) J, 9, 5 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets t2000 (All-In), Hero calls t950 (All-In)

Last edited by ClubbedNuts; Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:06 AM..
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 02:43 AM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
One of the things I've found at hyper-passive tables is that people don't just limp with marginal hands, they limp with good ones, too. I don't know if this was a never-raise kind of table, but if it was, it's something to think about.

Anyway, on to the actual topic, you flopped a strong draw. Two overcards and an ace-high flush draw gives you a massive number of outs against anything that's top pair or weaker. That's not a made hand, but as non-made hands go, you have a pretty good one. Having committed over a third of your stack preflop, I'm pretty sure folding would have just been bad. The villain's OOP flat/shove play here just smells of badness to me, so I would have called.

With that said, I think you made a bit of a blunder preflop. Raising like you did left you very little fold equity had your opponent called preflop, then checked the flop. I think you should have raised closer to 1/3 of your stack so that you would be able to make a better bet on the flop, or you should have just shoved and hoped for a call. If you wouldn't have been likely to get all but one, or at most two, of your opponents to fold with a 575 chip bet, then I would have just jammed the pot.

I like the hand though. IMO, the villain could have had anything in this spot, from the nuts to a stone bluff. If I had to guess, I'd say they had a pocket pair (I'm thinking kings or jacks). Looking forward to the results. I hope you won. I also hope that the more experienced players will leave their comments, too.
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 02:54 AM
(#3)
Damen1's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 29
I think were opening ourselves up to a world of hurt playing that hand this way. We have to shove here pre imo.

The reason is now weve put half our stack in pre for what? What if the flop is something like 789r then he shoves on us or checks to us?

Were ahead of their range or flipping pre. If were ok with risking 17BB for a 4.5BB pot if they all fold which is a 25% increase to our stack (which is good) and maybe go out early then go for it.

If we dont want to risk going out early (pso format), then we might overlimp and try to see a cheap showdown or hit some hand where we feel confortable shipping

As played, are we getting asked if stacking off with NFD +2 overs when getting more than 2 to 1 on our money and also getting a ton of equity against villains range is ok? Worse case scenario he hit 2pair, a set or flush but we dont care about that do we?

In a real tourney ship pre all day there or well get raped otherwise. You dont want to be putting more than 10% of your stack in without a plan as Lang would say.

P.S. in case we had AA or KK here we might pop it to 600 pre to intice em to call (or shove) more cause we are obviously punting in on any flop especially in pso. In tougher games you might wanna ship aces or kings pre to balance your range.

Yet again i might be wrong! Hope this helps!
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 05:23 AM
(#4)
ClubbedNuts's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 61
BronzeStar
Thanks for the comments/opinions so far.. I'm going to reserve the results a little bit longer as I hope to get a few more replies.. However, I'm happy to PM the both of you the results later today as it's 5am here and I need some rest..

@Panicky: In retrospect, I agree with your assessment of making a pre-flop ' blunder ' here and should've made the move to push instead of the 8BB raise as I had.. The reason for my reservation in that regard is due to the fact I'd be bust should the F/T/R produce undesirable results.. Being a PSO SL, +pts was the primary reasoning for my reservation..

I do have a question regarding you next sentence: for what reason do you say it would be a bad spot to be in with the villain calling the pre raise followed by him checking the flop..? Regardless of a check or bet on his part here, I'm making a move to take this pot down as I hit the flop pretty well, all things considered.. Does your comment relate to seeing a flop with uglier results..? If so, why does him checking result in bad news for me..? I apologize for being ignorant to your point.. I simply fail to understand what it is to which you're hinting..

Also, in what regard do you mention a bet of t575 here..? I'm failing to make a connection again and need some clarification.. I will mention that part of your assessment is correct in terms of the villain's play here..

Thanks in advance for clarifying my misunderstandings..
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 05:38 AM
(#5)
ClubbedNuts's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 61
BronzeStar
@damen: I think that you answered my question with a question regarding the post-flop action.. 2:1 against this guy's range is more than desirable, especially considering the flop results.. My question was directed more toward my pre-flop actions, as post is pretty much a no-brainer..

In your last paragraph you mention punting post-flop in a PSO tourney; what does that mean..? I'm guessing it's not a misspelling.. There's still much terminology I've yet to learn and need some clarification.. Also, is ' shipping ' another term for pushing all-in..?

Thanks for the help.. I'll get the results to you soon..
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 06:28 AM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I was suggesting that if you wanted to bet preflop, but not shove, you should probably bet about T575 instead of T800, so that you would have more chips, and a smaller pot, on the flop. The idea is that when you do take a swing at it, you'd be making closer to a pot-sized bet, and you'd have more fold equity and might just win the pot there. That's assuming, of course, that your opponent didn't shove on the flop. That strategy would probably just be bad to use here though. I think Damen would be the one to listen to here, just shove preflop. Pretty sure Damen's better than I am.

 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 04:11 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
17.5 bigs over 3 weak limpers, just shove pre imo.

Don't like raising to 575 because we miss the flop 2/3rds of the time and if a caller launches into us now we don't know what to do. If they check, we have to decide to bluff shove or check back, either is unattractive. Not wanting to put 5.75x of my 17.5x in the middle and then fold.

Raising almost half your stack is not good as already covered. Personally I prefer just shipping it pre.

As played, super easy call on the flop.

No need to PM me the result, I don't care, it's irrelevant.
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 06:15 PM
(#8)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Adding 1/4 to your stack if everyone folds preflop is very nice. And if someone calls at least you have a big ace to fall back on. But now you're stuck playing postflop...

You're actually getting 3 to 1 odds, so you have to call that flop shove every time unless you're that concerned with the points.

There's ~2000 in the pot and he bets ~2000...but you have only 1000 left so you have to treat his bet like 1000. There's 3000 in the pot and it costs you 1000 to call. 3 to 1. Odds of you making your flush with two cards to come are about 2 to 1, and your A and J may be outs too. You're getting an incredible price...you may be the favorite, or even ahead already!

So what about the points? Well, if you fold here you're left with about 1000 chips. Basically this is pretty close to the same as the sitters and clock folders. If you call and lose you lose xx points. If you call and win, you'll have about 4k. You can fold here and not risk a huge points loss, and 1000 chips is enough to fold to at worst a small negative. It seems like you're about a coinflip to turn 1k into 4k, and this early in the month, and with a score below 1850 points I like a call here. If it were the last week, or you had a top 100 score I think a fold makes sense since you do have enough chips to make it close to the break-even point rather than risk a likely 10 point loss.
 
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Fri Feb 18, 2011, 12:30 AM
(#9)
ClubbedNuts's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 61
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
17.5 bigs over 3 weak limpers, just shove pre imo.

Don't like raising to 575 because we miss the flop 2/3rds of the time and if a caller launches into us now we don't know what to do. If they check, we have to decide to bluff shove or check back, either is unattractive. Not wanting to put 5.75x of my 17.5x in the middle and then fold.

Raising almost half your stack is not good as already covered. Personally I prefer just shipping it pre.

As played, super easy call on the flop.

No need to PM me the result, I don't care, it's irrelevant.
Thanks for the input, Dave.. Your last sentence made me laugh as my girlfriend just mentiond a few hours before when we were out to dinner about some dialogue on a TV show where a man mentioned something about a trip and the Mrs. put a kibosh on his plans by saying, You're not going so it's irrelevant.. We were talking about my trip to FLA for a month on business..

Anyway, your advice makes complete sense after further review, as well as the comments from others.. I appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to reply to many of my posts..

Thanks for the help..!

P.S. You're not even a little curious about the outcome..?
 
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Fri Feb 18, 2011, 12:48 AM
(#10)
ClubbedNuts's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 61
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I was suggesting that if you wanted to bet preflop, but not shove, you should probably bet about T575 instead of T800, so that you would have more chips, and a smaller pot, on the flop. The idea is that when you do take a swing at it, you'd be making closer to a pot-sized bet, and you'd have more fold equity and might just win the pot there. That's assuming, of course, that your opponent didn't shove on the flop. That strategy would probably just be bad to use here though. I think Damen would be the one to listen to here, just shove preflop. Pretty sure Damen's better than I am.

After your elaboration of the subject, I understand your reasoning to leave myself w/ a greater number of chips to produce more fold equity on the flop.. However, judging by the table dynamic at the time (which there's really no way for you to recognize this since you weren't there), it was unlikely that I'd find success in producing at least two of the folds of which I intended.. You're suggestion is a bit ambivalent, IMO.. I'm not sure if you're suggesting that I shove pre-flop or make the 33% stack bet; which would ultimately make me pot-commited to begin with, correct..?

Your advice and suggestions are always welcomed and appreciated. In no way am I trying to show a lack there-of.. You often take the time to respond to my posts/blogs, and for that I thank you..
 
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Fri Feb 18, 2011, 12:49 AM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClubbedNuts View Post
P.S. You're not even a little curious about the outcome..?
Nope. Seriously. The result of an individual trial bears no meaning on the decision making process at work prior to that result.
 
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Fri Feb 18, 2011, 01:17 AM
(#12)
ClubbedNuts's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 61
BronzeStar
@ oriholic: What's goin on, brutha..? Good to hear from you again..

In regard to your comment about open-raising 1/4 of my stack, such makes sense should I be in the proper position to do so.. However, there were the three limpers acting ahead of me in addition to the button and blinds..

Your recommendation vis-a-vis folding post-flop should I be too concerned about missing on the turn/river also makes sense, as I leave myself with an opportunity to minimize the damage to my league score.. Additionally, if either this being the last week of play or a I maintain a top 100 rank, I'm still likely to make a call (which is what I did here, BTW), as I have enough confidence in my game to be able to make up for the point loss.. Should I be in the top 10, a little more discretion would likely be applied..

Thanks for the feedback..! As always, it's appreciated..!
 

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