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Cash Table Money Management

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Cash Table Money Management - Thu Feb 17, 2011, 06:39 AM
(#1)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Here's a question about a problem I keep having:

Whenever I go to the cash games, I often build up a pretty nice stack of chips. I usually do pretty well, making small gains and chipping up over time. But then, maybe an hour in, there's one bad hand. One bad play, bad beat, or cooler, that results in my stack being pretty much depleted.

Is this just a symptom of me not being good in general and getting too rowdy with my chips, or am I just not employing strategies to protect the money I make? I'd like to know if this happens to others, and if anybody has strategies to deal with this problem.

Thanks!
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 08:18 AM
(#2)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
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happens to me all the time.... I just dont know when to leave..
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 08:32 AM
(#3)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
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Some days thats going to happen no matter what you do. You could double up over the course of an hour or two, then go all in preflop with AA vs KK and see a K hit the board. Thing is, if your constantly losing your stack at somepoint every hour or two, your doing something wrong. Got to maximize your gains and minimize your losses. When your showing a lot of strength and your opponnent starts showing even greater strength anyways, sometimes it is better to lock down and possibly let go of the hand instead of getting stacked by a cooler or flopped set or whatever the grim reaper has chosen for you.
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 10:11 AM
(#4)
freddysw's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 179
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Panicky I am putting in more time on cash tables lately and I can relate to what you are saying.
Here is my situation, I am at micro level, playing 05/10 mostly and just starting to move up to 10/25. I play omaha h/l PL and NL.

My BR strategy is 5% buy-in and I try to play at least 100 hands in a session - if I'm up any amount when I get to 100 hands I leave the table. If I'm down after 100 hands I'll decide how the table looks and stick around if its good and see what happens next couple of orbits.
If I have a big win at any point and double up my buy-in which has happened sometime on the first hand, I will stay till my BB and then take the profit and leave the table.

I don't put in a lot of time online yet cause I can't - so I know this may seem like to small a sample. It works for me though and last I checked I had 18 winning sessions out of last 20 that were positive. and a win rate of about 10BB per 100 hands. Total profit was about $30 - so its slow and steady for me for now and that seems to work.

Would love to hear your ideas on cash games and your strategies with BR as mine are pretty basic and mostly based on the fact I have limited time to play.

Also I have notes for at least a dozen crazy russians and Euros that I search for when picking a table - man they must teach a different kind of poker over there - calling any bet with ATC and hope seems to be their favorite strategy. lol
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 11:55 AM
(#5)
XXChris123's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,512
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sounds like you guys are playing No Limit with too small of a bank roll
If you had a correct bank roll these bad beats would mean nothing and you would welcome those poor players . A bad beat that cripples your bank says two things.

1. you are playing over your bank roll requirements
2. the type player you should be playing against is the type of player that ruins you

Bad beat means you are 65% favorite or more. That means you play that way 1000 times and 650 times you win and 350 times you lose . However you guys just like 98% of everyone here are playing no limit with a bank that cant stand a strong breeze much less a storm .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 02:37 PM
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freddysw's Avatar
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Posts: 179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XXChris123 View Post
sounds like you guys are playing No Limit with too small of a bank roll
If you had a correct bank roll these bad beats would mean nothing and you would welcome those poor players . A bad beat that cripples your bank says two things.

1. you are playing over your bank roll requirements
2. the type player you should be playing against is the type of player that ruins you

Bad beat means you are 65% favorite or more. That means you play that way 1000 times and 650 times you win and 350 times you lose . However you guys just like 98% of everyone here are playing no limit with a bank that cant stand a strong breeze much less a storm .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

Hey Chris can you elaborate for me? I am not worried about absorbing bad beats. My issue is time as I can only play a couple hours a night mostly on weeknights. So I have a goal to get in at least 100 hands per session when I play. This is a nothing for you I know but for me it is a good day if I can run 2 tables and get in 100 hands on each.

I have always used a buy-in amount of 5% as a rule for BR, right now that allows me to buy-in mostly for $10 to $15 at a time and I play .05/10 NL. I prefer having 100 BB when I sit down.

Would love to hear your basic rules you use for cash game BR and any advice for someone like me that has limited time issues. Thanks
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 03:00 PM
(#7)
XXChris123's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,512
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work ethic
applies to poker also
you need to set aside a time where you can play with no interference
however you should be ready to stop instantly also
for instance if average pot is 50 cents and you break even for 200 hands and on hand 201 you earn
$5 then you should stop . Try to avoid stopping after a bad beat. All that does is make you leave the table always a loser . Try to always leave on a win.
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 03:04 PM
(#8)
XXChris123's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,512
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The die rolling experiment expresses the fact that it takes 500 rolls for the wild swings from 1 to 6 to average out to a point where a swing in either direction has no effect upon the average. It's the same with a poker bank . Over time the law of large numbers combined with skillful play will eliminate negative swings over time. In fact if a player is skillful the graph should tend to move upwards over time. However if a players bank is weak for the limits he plays he can never get past the wild swing area and will go broke.
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 03:08 PM
(#9)
XXChris123's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,512
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Identify the the types of players who hurt you the most. Define how many hands they play. how do they play those hands. Knowing all you about them what can you change about how you play to make it more profitable for you against that type of player. his name may change but his type remains. .... Replying to this post has cost me $1.50
 
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Thu Feb 17, 2011, 08:19 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Hey Chris, I wasn't saying that I'm angry because bad beats are tanking my roll. I said that this sort of thing happens:

I start at a table with $4.

I make small gains, getting it up to $6 within an hour.

I play a big hand well, taking my total up to $9.

Then, I get it in with aces, and lose to a runner-runner straight from the big stack to my left.

I now have $0.

The point isn't that I enter with too much of my roll. It's that even if I play well, just one bad hand can kill me. And I'm not nearly good enough to play every hand perfectly, so this doesn't just happen with aces. If just one bad hand can take everything you've gained and more, then just one bad hand, despite pretty decent play, can make you a losing player.

That's what I was getting at. It looks like some people like to leave their tables after a certain point and not play there indefinitely. I think I'll try that. freddy's 100 hand idea looks good, but I read in one of Sandtrap's posts that he leaves as soon as he doubles his buy-in. That seems to be the easiest fix for my problem, so I'll give that a try.

And congrats on your success at the cash tables freddy! I don't have any working strategies for them yet, but if that changes I'll probably post them here.
 
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Getting out vs staying in - Mon Feb 28, 2011, 08:00 AM
(#11)
mrathlete_5's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 12
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I also play on the micro tables, I try to play 300 hands a day. Over the past month I have mad several $10 deposits. I want to be taking money out and not in. I think maybe this is due to the fact that I play the no limit tables. With $10, should I be playing only at the fixed limit tables? And say I lose 2 or 3 bucks that day(because it happens) do I need to add more to my bankroll or just come back the next day and try again? Also when is a good time to get out if your getting beat by crap hands. For example I had played 113 hands and was really getting nothing, should I have stopped playing for the day or continued? Thanks for your help
 
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Mon Feb 28, 2011, 09:19 AM
(#12)
wwwMBeecouk's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 690
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Judging by your post in Live Training I would suggest that you play tight. Then it does not matter whether it is NL or L.

As you say Patience Patience Patience BUT aligned to that: play tight (AA, KK, QQ, KA and maybe QA) until you get to know the calling range of your main opponents. That way you may take out more than you put in.

MB
 
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Mon Feb 28, 2011, 05:47 PM
(#13)
mrathlete_5's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 12
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That is very good advice and thank you so much. I am going to head to the tables now and I'll let you know. I don't consider myself a tight player, I like action, but being tight is probably the best thing I can do unless I spot a bluffer like the other day. LOL, I got $8 off that guy he was calling everything. I had 4 of a kind with aces and he was still playing like a wild man.
 
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Mon Feb 28, 2011, 06:45 PM
(#14)
wwwMBeecouk's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrathlete_5 View Post
Tsnip...
I like action, but being tight is probably the best thing I can do unless I spot a bluffer...snip
Action is great: that is where Tight Aggressive comes in. You have say KK and raise preflop. Friendly flop and you start loading chips in the pot and all others bar a loose player fold. You take a nice pot.

As things stand I think that that scenario is happening to you but as the loose player and you are paying the price.

I don't know how many tables you run at a time but I find if I have between 4 and 6 on the go it is much easier to play tight aggressive since I am busy most of the time. The disadvantage is not being able to take notes too easily; but if you have, say, hold em manager, or similar, running that will help.

Good luck.

MB
 
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Mon Feb 28, 2011, 08:37 PM
(#15)
mrathlete_5's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 12
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I'm not having to much luck tonight I went all in earlier with the 80 cents I used for a buy in with AA and got beat by 3 of a kind 6's. I still felt I mad the right call. So I bought back in a moved to a different table which all the tables seem to be tight tonight. I am 140 hands in right now and have only been playing one table but I am about to go with 4 tables. Thanks for the continued advice.
 
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Thu Mar 17, 2011, 12:53 PM
(#16)
DLeviathan's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 501
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There are two ways to avoid variance and neither is satisfactory. One way is to not play at all. The other way is to not play big pots. NL cash games are actually reasonably low variance. Sure, you can lose it all in one hand. But you get to pick when to risk it all. See the Live Training Video on Committment Decisions.
 

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