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FE - Fold Equity - Will it help in the following..

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FE - Fold Equity - Will it help in the following.. - Sat Feb 19, 2011, 07:58 PM
(#1)
tc1228's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 29
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Hi, Dave;

I was playing in a game I won a ticket to from Hubble's free game. (Top 72 fiinishers get to attend a $2000-pot/prize-pool on Saturdays or Sundays). I did win money in this second game ... but, I have noticed something...

UNLESS I'm lucky and win some major individual hands (i.e., a lot of players get into the same hand AND I'm fortunate enough to be the ultimate win) then, for the most part, it is a matter of "Steady Freddy", for me.

In other words, while I'm slowly growing my chip-stack - let's say.. after an hour-or-two of tournament play, where I may be above average in chip-count - let's say, 6,000 chips, while the average may be... let's say, 3500 chips. MEANWHILE, and more significantly, the chip-leaders out of the entire rat-race may have.. 12,000.. .18,000 chips...

Q. Are those players there IN BIG part because of exercising what their FE math tells them, or in part because of those afore-mentioned "Lucky-hands" (where many people got involved in the hand, and the pot became unusually large) and exercising some "Pushing" based on the math of FE?

I really want to be more regularly up at the top of that list at those stages of the game - and I am wondering if it is FE that arms those leaders that chance to be there themselves.

Thank you.

Josh
TC1228
 
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Sun Feb 20, 2011, 12:40 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,513
(Head Trainer)
Hi Josh,

It is often a combination of both. Timely aggression plus getting lucky when they do get called, plus pushing small edges. And sometimes in the first hour or two a player up there is just a clown who's played somewhat maniac like and had the deck run over them or sucked out several times, it happens. Don't think that's the path though, if 100 super-LAGgy players enter the tournament 1 or 2 is bound to accumulate a big stack early through sheer luck, even if most the rest are on the rail.

Experiment with opening up your aggression more to leverage fold equity, and get comfortable shifting into higher gears definitely. But if you're running well above the average stack much of the way, that's not exactly a problem either.

Dave
 
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Sun Feb 20, 2011, 10:45 AM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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Last night in the NAPL Rookie League we were down to 50 players. Very large stack is on the button, I'm in BB with a below average stack. He raises to 9000 like he had almost everytime. This time I am dealt A10o, so I reraise all-in to 62,000. He is sitting on 330,000 more chips, and is loose. He refuses to fold because, besides being a terrible player, he doesn't really have much fold equity right? If he loses he is still big stacked big time. He calls with K4s and flops K44.... felt like getting stabbed in the heart.

So, point of my sad story is if there is a LAG with a giant stack, there isn't really a whole lot of fold equity to exploit is there? You might get your chips in with the best hand, but thats often not enough when it is your tournament life on the line. Is there a better way to deal with the loose giant stacks besides gambling for everything or nothing?
 
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?? - Sun Feb 20, 2011, 11:20 AM
(#4)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
is the reverse of your ?? but still a good article by Gus Hansen-- gl-

http://www.pokerlistings.com/blog/pr.../being-a-bully
 
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Sun Feb 20, 2011, 01:19 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,513
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockerguyAA View Post
Last night in the NAPL Rookie League we were down to 50 players. Very large stack is on the button, I'm in BB with a below average stack. He raises to 9000 like he had almost everytime. This time I am dealt A10o, so I reraise all-in to 62,000. He is sitting on 330,000 more chips, and is loose. He refuses to fold because, besides being a terrible player, he doesn't really have much fold equity right? If he loses he is still big stacked big time. He calls with K4s and flops K44.... felt like getting stabbed in the heart.

So, point of my sad story is if there is a LAG with a giant stack, there isn't really a whole lot of fold equity to exploit is there? You might get your chips in with the best hand, but thats often not enough when it is your tournament life on the line. Is there a better way to deal with the loose giant stacks besides gambling for everything or nothing?
Very loose players with big piles of chips are hard to fold out, yes. Especially after they've opened for a raise. Unfortunately you're going to usually have to show them a hand, or you can try to leverage fold equity with a wider range when they do fold which usually happens once in a while.

As for your situation without the actual hand history I can't help you, don't know what the blinds or other stacks were. Also not sure if this is a satellite or a regular pay structure for the NAPL rookie league that you were playing. If you had 20 bb's and it's a satty, folding might have been ok. If it's a regular pay structure and thus you're playing to win, shipping AT over the villain as described is ok.
 
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Follow-up reflections on FE - and and reflections on comments/add-ons - Sun Feb 20, 2011, 02:18 PM
(#6)
tc1228's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 29
BronzeStar
Hi, Dave, RockerguyAA and monkeyskunk;

First, Dave, thanks for the response. I suspected as much. It just feels that in 10 out 10 games (in which I am viable for a fair part of the way), I feel I have to work harder than those chip-leaders at those moments (during those stages of rounds, that is..). I'm not complaining, but, I think it comes down to what you said about experimenting with the use of FE.

The problem I face there, often-times, then, is that the dynamics of these tables are such that 1) I don't really have reads on enough of the players (to narrow it down to let's say - 2 players) that I feel that I'm in the situation to take advantage, and 2) I suspect that position and stack-size are material because if some one "sucks the wind" out of my potential push in front of me, thus diminishing the effect of my own push.... then I don't get to practice using FE.

But, having said that - I WILL experiment with using FE to determine when and if to push more often.

Do you have a short-hand formula for the FE calculation? or, any calculation you can provide here at all?

monkeyskunk4 (are there monkeyskunks1, 2 and 3??) Thank you for your article link. I think that Gus Hansen's directive to RockerguyAA would thus be: Push!... BUT.. but...

RockerguyAA - my experiences with A,10 are poor. I remember when I first started..2 - 3 yrs ago in free live local tourneys in Denver (denverpokertours.com), that I'd think, Oooh - potential for a high straight AND I have the highest kicker if a 10 comes out, but now I rank it ALMOST with J,7 or Q,8 or K,9 .. UNLESS it's suited!

(now, for all of you who read this and laterl play with me, please forget I say all this!..)

So, my take/experience - approach now-a-days with A,10, is to play - but play light - I RARELY raise with it - maybe when it's suited, and only maybe - and I'm pretty sure I would have just called - to see wha that lose player was going to do. Having said that - if he masked his hand well, then knowing me - I'd step on the land-mine-waiting-to-"happen", anyhow - but, maybe I'd have some chips left over to play on...

Just my reflections...

Boy... gus IS a bully, huh?!?

Josh
TC1228
 
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Sun Feb 20, 2011, 07:34 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,513
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tc1228 View Post
Do you have a short-hand formula for the FE calculation? or, any calculation you can provide here at all?
Hi Josh,

Unfortunately there is no formula for calcing FE. There are a lot of things to consider. Looseness/tightness of the player, stack sizes, a players goals, recent history or image, etc.

When the fold equity class runs again be sure to check it out, that will help.

Dave
 

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