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Am I a "irresponsible" poker player, if I fold AK?

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Am I a "irresponsible" poker player, if I fold AK? - Sun Feb 20, 2011, 04:38 PM
(#1)
tc1228's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 29
BronzeStar
Hi;

So, I can't remember when, today, this took place - I'm guessing it was in a tourney of some kind, cause I don't think I have played a cash-table, yet...

Very high level.. ('cuz, though my memory is good, it is short...), I have a AK.. and 3 or 4 other players end up in the hand as well. I HAD an opportunity to fold, but I think, "No! That would be poker-ly speaking, irresponsible!" (I am big on academic - theoretic- economics, so I always think of, "What would the economically responsible/sensible person do?" )

I might add, too, that though I am not great at ALL at what hands others DO have, I have - I think - an almost UNCANNY sense of what players DON'T have; i.e., I KNOW they don't have AK, or AA - while I play my QQ. Unfortunately, though I am correct - they DON'T have AA, or AK - they have .. KK!! I lose!

So, I have a feeling about this hand, and, sure enough.. my AK vs AQ, vs A3 vs.. junk (and if there was a 5th hand, more junk.. I forget)...Did I mention I have a good memory, it is just short?)

I lost.

A Queen came up, and he or she got her pair but, she was crippled. She only ended up with 280 chips (Now, WHY in the world do I remember THAT?? How many chips she had? I mean, I don't know if I mentioned this, but I have a good memory, but it's short!

Anyhow, the winner was the A3 holder who built a straight...

I still had chips so I continued to play. I don't remember how I did though... That's another "story"... re: memory.. ahh, never mind...

So...

Q. I had a feeling that I was going to be beat. My leading-into-that-hand-stack told me I could "afford" it AND I HAD AK....Should I have listened to my feelings and folded? Or was I the poker-ly responsible person by playing, despite my internal misgivings and the results?

Oh... maybe some of the "clues" were how they had limped prior to my 3xbb, or... maybe 5x bb (Hey, it's donk-ey-eat-donk-ey world out there!! Some of them don't understand 3x but DO respect 5x!)

In other words, play on - the same way, in the future - take feelings out of it!?!

Josh
TC1228
 
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Sun Feb 20, 2011, 07:37 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Hi Josh,

Please post the hand history. We need to see the specific details of the hand before giving an informed opinion about how you played it.

When you're short stacked, you're going with AK every time. It's not clear that you are or not here, or the other stack sizes etc. Hence the necessity for the history.

Dave
 
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Mon Feb 21, 2011, 04:19 AM
(#3)
tc1228's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 29
BronzeStar
Hi, Dave;

I requested history, then more history, and I scrolled through it... Nothing !

Is it possible that the history I want falls in a category of game/tourney, that PS doesn't automate the retrieval of? I have written to PS staff, asking them for assistance.

I thought... Maybe it wasn't AK, and it wasn't A3 and one other A,something - Jack, I think ... but, I remember it was, 'cuz three of us had Aces showing as the hand played down after the river - and the straight was that A,3 plus a 2, 4 and 5.

I can say that at that table, I was chip-lead. In the overall tourney (and I can't remember if it was a 45-player event for $1.10, or a free event with 1000 to 9000 players. In either case, I was in the top.. 75-percentile.

So, maybe I'm learning something, and we don't need the hand.

Let's say I had.. 4500 chip with AK
AJ had 2600 chips - went all in
A3 had 600 chips - went all in - She won
other player - went all in - got the remainder of the stack - had a pair where A, K or J didn't have anything..

If I am comfortably chip lead, can I - or should I - play my AK lighter? Normally, I might bet.. earlier more, let's say, 5 or 7 x bb (seems to be the only way I can shake the overly "loose" players), and later, a 4 x bb will have the same result..

My approach is one that is .. derived from some "instructions" I found/read within PSO's site...

In effect - and I paraphrase..... "You only want to be playing "heads up" - not with too many players.. and, Shake them loose early - win less, but don't let them build out their hand(s) - So, I in part "read" that to mean.. (in part) - "Make it expensive for them to stick around!"

Thank you for your reflections.

Josh
tc1228
 
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?? - Mon Feb 21, 2011, 09:14 AM
(#4)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
hey josh- welcome to the forum- we played the other day- it really is necessary to post the hand history- preferrably using the hand converter- as to see the position, stack sizes relative to the blinds- etc. in order to give proper feed back- easy way to do this - is to copy and paste it into a notebook file- right after u play it- from the insant hand history option - top left corner of table-- then go to one of the many sites on the web and convert hand--and keep participating in the forum- lots of great info in here- and a few laffs along the way-- Monk..

Last edited by monkeyskunk4; Mon Feb 21, 2011 at 09:21 AM.. Reason: link. wont work
 
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Mon Feb 21, 2011, 10:04 AM
(#5)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
BronzeStar
Just to let you know, AK, is considered a Group One hand. How the powers that be can say that is beyond me. Either I'm playing these hands wrong, or the force is not with me. (sorry George Lucas) Just look at the statistics I've accumulated on this starting hand.

ACE-KING SUITIED:
99 wins - 24 losses - 66 folded = 524 winning percentage

ACE-KING UNSUITED:
213 wins - 65 losses - 193 folded = 452 winning percentage




Statistics are from all games I've played between June 2010 and January 2011. Numbers are updated at the end of the month in the Group One and Group Two thread in the Beginner's Forum.
 
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Mon Feb 21, 2011, 10:59 AM
(#6)
TARIQ06's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 380
BronzeStar
a/k is the most overrated hand in poker..sounds bias but it seems true..big slick should be folded from various pos. and chip stack consideration..just becuase its a/k dosent gaurantee you are going to win, i had to learn that the hard way..
 
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Mon Feb 21, 2011, 03:40 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairn Destop View Post
Just to let you know, AK, is considered a Group One hand. .
This is per Sklansky's hand groupings. Which were derived for limit hold'em. Hand values in NL change with the depth of money. That's why there can be no true "starting hand chart" for NL. Depth of money, position, opponent type... there's a bunch of factors that weigh into the value of a starting hand in big bet poker. Don't get me wrong, a starting hand chart or the hand groupings for intrinsic hand value are a good thing to learn, as they set a basic foundation and that is very important. But they are still just that, basic, and as your knowledge and experience grows, so should the dynamics of your starting hand selection and your understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of certain starting hand values.

AK is a monster when you're short stacked. It's pretty strong medium stacked too. It's a good starting hand deep stacked, but requires much more care in playing. It rates this way because AK is very good at winning small pots, pretty good in medium sized one, and not so hot in big pots (on deep money, say 100bb+ effective like in a cash game). Value is all relative.
 
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Mon Feb 21, 2011, 03:45 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tc1228 View Post
Hi, Dave;

I requested history, then more history, and I scrolled through it... Nothing !

Is it possible that the history I want falls in a category of game/tourney, that PS doesn't automate the retrieval of? I have written to PS staff, asking them for assistance.

I thought... Maybe it wasn't AK, and it wasn't A3 and one other A,something - Jack, I think ... but, I remember it was, 'cuz three of us had Aces showing as the hand played down after the river - and the straight was that A,3 plus a 2, 4 and 5.

I can say that at that table, I was chip-lead. In the overall tourney (and I can't remember if it was a 45-player event for $1.10, or a free event with 1000 to 9000 players. In either case, I was in the top.. 75-percentile.

So, maybe I'm learning something, and we don't need the hand.

Let's say I had.. 4500 chip with AK
AJ had 2600 chips - went all in
A3 had 600 chips - went all in - She won
other player - went all in - got the remainder of the stack - had a pair where A, K or J didn't have anything.
We still need the hand. What were the blinds/antes? What were the other stack sizes? Avg. stack? Etc. All these can impact your decision.

Make sure to set your pokerstars client to save hand histories to your hard drive. It's under options, instant hand histories I think. If you have the tournament # you can request all histories from that tournament be emailed to you.

Dave
 
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Mon Feb 21, 2011, 09:38 PM
(#9)
tc1228's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 29
BronzeStar
Hi, Dave, Monkey, Cairn, Tariq;

Well - and I thought this was all going to be so easy.

An analogy - when I tell people why I enjoyed windsurfing so much - you ALWAYS were challenged by learning something new. Comparatively, skiing is "easy", because you, for example, progress from the snow-plow to the stem-christie - and then you plateau for a while until you learn to parallel-ski. With windsurfing - you always have something new to learn - how to water-start, how to tack, how to jibe, how to set your sail,.. etc

I'm encountering the same here.

So, yes, Dave - you actually said that somewhere else, before - that depending on one's stack-size, the AK can be a more - or less - significant a "contributor" to one's efforts. I'll .. try to incorporate that concept/thought - and certainly reflect on that as I push on.

I did get a letter back from PS support. They only auto-feedback (e-mail) you your latest 200 hands. By the time I had requested that history, I had played more than 200 hands - and though it was the same day, I didn't know the tournament number.

No problem - I've started saving hands that .. "bug" me - and, if reflection of them/over them doesn't give me inspiration, I'll share them when appropriate.

I am starting another thread in a moment, about "leaks" - first I'll google it, then I'll post my question.

Thanks, all!

Josh
TC1228
 

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