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How Far Should I C-Bet After Flopping Air?

 
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How Far Should I C-Bet After Flopping Air? - Fri Feb 25, 2011, 09:36 AM
(#1)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Alright, I'm still in the tourney, so I'll make this as quick as I can.

I draw a pocket pair and get a limper in front. I make a 5x raise to isolate. The flop confuses me (I don't really know if it's good or bad) because there's a board pair (which is good for a pocket pair because it's less likely my opponent hit), but the board pair is KK, and kings are in any limp/caller's range easily.

I c-bet with the assumption that I'm ahead, but I get flatted. The turn is an overcard, and I think for a minute. I don't know if my opponent hit or not; they could be playing KT, or JT, or 22 (it's really hard to underestimate the erraticism of my opponents; some of them will shove 150BB having missed the board, which is how I got my chip lead). I think that my opponent might have floated the flop on some sort of weak draw, they hit trips, or they have a pocket pair too. That's what I have for their range, and I figure that I'd prefer to drop the hand now, but if I check, I'm welcoming a bet, which I'm folding to. I decide to maintain my aggression in hopes that my opponent will just decide to give up their weak draw and drop their hand. I bet the turn and get flatted again.

The river is a third overcard. If my opponent called me this far, I have to assume they have something. I know lots of opponents in these MTT early stages will flat with air, but I think I'll lose too many chips too often, if I put more money in. I check/fold, and am done with the hand.

Here's the big question: I took an aggressive line in this hand that got me almost no information about my opponent's hand. They never raised me, they just check/called, called, called, then bet. Had they ever raised me, I likely would have folded. It seems to me that I should have been set mining here and just c-bet/folded or check/folded the flop, but that just seems really nitty to me. I feel like I misplayed the hand, but I don't know where. Can you guys give me your impressions on this hand? This is not the kind of hand I'm comfortable playing.

Thanks!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 5.5 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t2780)
Panicky (UTG) (t9150)
UTG+1 (t2960)
MP1 (t3000)
MP2 (t3045)
MP3 (t2810)
CO (t4035)

Panicky's M: 305.00

Preflop: Panicky is UTG with 8, 8
3 folds, CO calls t20, 1 fold, Panicky bets t100, 1 fold, CO calls t80

Flop: (t220) 6, K, K (2 players)
Panicky bets t140, CO calls t140

Turn: (t500) 10 (2 players)
Panicky bets t280, CO calls t280

River: (t1060) Q (2 players)
Panicky checks, CO bets t640, Panicky folds

Total pot: t1060
 
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?? - Fri Feb 25, 2011, 09:49 AM
(#2)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
tuff spot-yet good flop 4 you imo- hes not gonna believe you have a K either- and odds of him having one are not great either- so at this point i think you either have to overbet the pot- and maybe even push- (you have him outstacked 2-1) to protect your hand- and take it right there-- with 2 cards to come- likely he gonna get there--with hands like A10,Q10s,10Js etc. by bloating the pot with a c-bet- he gets better odds to call each time-- jmo-- monk-- gl--

ps. did you think about making a crying call there to gain info on him? was 640 on your 8k remaining stack- might serve you well in future hands?

Last edited by monkeyskunk4; Fri Feb 25, 2011 at 09:55 AM..
 
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Fri Feb 25, 2011, 10:32 AM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Thanks for the overbet idea monk. I always miss things like that, and I don't consider all my possibilities. That one was definitely worth thinking about, and might have actually made my turn decision easier if I had just stuck in a flop bet and about half the turn bet all at once. A 280 bet into a 220 pot would have given me a better idea of where I was at. Shoving with my stack size would not have been such a great idea because I stood to lose a lot on the times the guy did have a K. But overbetting is a tactic I don't use often enough. Thanks for the ideas.

And as for the crying call, I don't give them a lot of credit in MTT's, because I have a lot of trouble focusing on reads and organizing them in my head. I need to work on collecting and using the free ones before I start paying for them. Also, these MTT's tend to table balance a lot. I'm still in mine and have been table switched five times so far, I think.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Fri Feb 25, 2011 at 10:41 AM..
 
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Fri Feb 25, 2011, 11:29 AM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I just got stacked in a KK vs. AA confrontation. And I was doing so well...

Well, if anyone else wants to comment on this, go right ahead. More good ideas will help me do better next time around.
 
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Fri Feb 25, 2011, 03:38 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Don't really like overbetting, and pushing (risking 4K to win 200 chips) can't be good, we'll either take down 200 chips or be drawing to a 2 outter for half our stack... not really a good risk/reward ratio.

Since your hand has showdown value maybe check/call the turn. You're beating 6x and smaller pairs, but how likely are those to call additional barrels? Are you barreling the turn for value or as a bluff? Not sure how many worse hands will call a 2nd barrel (so not for value), and doubt any better hands will fold (so not a bluff). When he calls the flop, either he's got you beat, he has a marginal made hand like A6 and thinks he might be good, or he's floating with air. c/c allows him to lose more money on his float, possibly gets you one additional street of value on the river vs. weaker made hands that would likely fold to a turn barrel, but may bluff catch the river, and keeps your losses managable vs. the bigger hands.
 
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?? - Fri Feb 25, 2011, 07:22 PM
(#6)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
Don't really like overbetting, and pushing (risking 4K to win 200 chips) can't be good, we'll either take down 200 chips or be drawing to a 2 outter for half our stack... not really a good risk/reward ratio.


Read more: How Far Should I C-Bet After Flopping Air? - PokerSchoolOnline Forum http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...#ixzz1F1HBigaY

I understand what your saying - and obv. dont wanna lose half stack if ure crushed-- i say over bet the pot on the flop- to find out exactly where i am -- dont think hed call that with just overs- as played panick lost the min-- but i still think i might call that river bet for info--easliy coulda been floating with Ax--
 
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Fri Feb 25, 2011, 11:37 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Don't really like overbetting, and pushing (risking 4K to win 200 chips) can't be good, we'll either take down 200 chips or be drawing to a 2 outter for half our stack... not really a good risk/reward ratio.

Since your hand has showdown value maybe check/call the turn. You're beating 6x and smaller pairs, but how likely are those to call additional barrels? Are you barreling the turn for value or as a bluff? Not sure how many worse hands will call a 2nd barrel (so not for value), and doubt any better hands will fold (so not a bluff). When he calls the flop, either he's got you beat, he has a marginal made hand like A6 and thinks he might be good, or he's floating with air. c/c allows him to lose more money on his float, possibly gets you one additional street of value on the river vs. weaker made hands that would likely fold to a turn barrel, but may bluff catch the river, and keeps your losses managable vs. the bigger hands.
Yeah...

This is a time I think I would fore-go ANY C-Bet, simply because I am not betting a King OOP against most players of this dry board anyway. My default is to check a King, and allow him to bet (obviously not in ALL situations, but in many).

C/C sounds like the way to control the pot a lot better, and use any reads on the opponent I might have. Afterall...

If it checks twice, then any float bluff is probably a lot easier to call (absent further "threat" cards), and if you are beind, you are going to lose a lot less.

As for monkeyskunk's over-bet idea...

I think that is "valid" only if you have shown down at least 1 BIG hand that you bet that way. If you have, then you will tend to get a lot more credit for doing it again. If you haven;t, then it may well serve to simply bloat the pot, and make a float play even "jucier" for the opponent to try.

You gotta remember, you are BOTH on really deep stacks here, so any bloated pots have a good bit of "room" for people to fire large without a humonguous effect on table Q, or overall TEQ this early. So I really do not like a big over-bet "bluff" here...
 
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Sat Feb 26, 2011, 11:28 AM
(#8)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
This is a time I think I would fore-go ANY C-Bet, simply because I am not betting a King OOP against most players of this dry board anyway.
I didn't realize it until you posted this, but this is exactly why I was uncomfortable with the hand. My bet on the flop was almost telling my opponent, "I don't have a king," and any opponent who would make the assumption that I wouldn't bet a king that way could easily exploit that by playing as though they had a king. Now I feel better about the situation, and I understand what to do and why next time.

Thanks for all the advice, everyone!
 

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