Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions / Old Hand Analysis Section /

bad call??

 
Old
Default
bad call?? - Thu Mar 03, 2011, 07:17 PM
(#1)
antlovesang1's Avatar
Since: May 2010
Posts: 931
PokerStars Game #58612665261: Tournament #368288636, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2011/03/04 0:10:31 WET [2011/03/03 19:10:31 ET]
Table '368288636 139' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: johannfl (2997 in chips)
Seat 2: SlotsORink (22104 in chips)
Seat 3: SublimeWheat (2520 in chips)
Seat 4: ButtaCupz128 (3288 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: fishn_freak1 (3175 in chips)
Seat 6: Tollbar (2012 in chips)
Seat 7: fishn_freaky (15969 in chips)
Seat 8: antlovesang1 (7159 in chips)
Seat 9: chelle867 (280 in chips)
johannfl: posts the ante 50
SlotsORink: posts the ante 50
SublimeWheat: posts the ante 50
ButtaCupz128: posts the ante 50
fishn_freak1: posts the ante 50
Tollbar: posts the ante 50
fishn_freaky: posts the ante 50
antlovesang1: posts the ante 50
chelle867: posts the ante 50
SublimeWheat: posts small blind 200
ButtaCupz128: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to antlovesang1 [Js Ts]
fishn_freak1: folds
Tollbar: folds
fishn_freaky: folds
chelle867 is disconnected
antlovesang1: calls 400
chelle867 has timed out while disconnected
chelle867: folds
chelle867 is sitting out
johannfl: folds
SlotsORink: calls 400
SublimeWheat: calls 200
ButtaCupz128: folds
*** FLOP *** [6h 7c 5c]
SublimeWheat: checks
antlovesang1: checks
SlotsORink: checks
*** TURN *** [6h 7c 5c] [9c]
SublimeWheat: checks
antlovesang1: checks
SlotsORink: checks
*** RIVER *** [6h 7c 5c 9c] [8h]
SublimeWheat: checks
antlovesang1: bets 800
SlotsORink: raises 8400 to 9200
SublimeWheat: folds
antlovesang1: calls 5909 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (2491) returned to SlotsORink
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SlotsORink: shows [Ac Qc] (a flush, Ace high)
antlovesang1: shows [Js Ts] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
SlotsORink collected 15468 from pot
antlovesang1 finished the tournament in 380th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 15468 | Rake 0
Board [6h 7c 5c 9c 8h]
Seat 1: johannfl folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: SlotsORink (button) showed [Ac Qc] and won (15468) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 3: SublimeWheat (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 4: ButtaCupz128 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: fishn_freak1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Tollbar folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: fishn_freaky folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: antlovesang1 showed [Js Ts] and lost with a straight, Seven to Jack
Seat 9: chelle867 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
Old
Default
Thu Mar 03, 2011, 08:22 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
that's a tough one. You've got 2 higher than the board for a str8.... so you beat anyone with A 10 or K 10 or Q 10. The only thing you have to worry about is the flush.

If I was at + league pts, I'd probably call it.... if not, then I'd probably muck it since you've got a decent chip stack.... but probably not enough to get ITM (if it was a slow table, may be close).
 
Old
Default
Thu Mar 03, 2011, 09:41 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Bad spot to be in.

Your start stack does not really give ou any kind of post flop play.

The question I would ask you is: Why put yourself to a tough decision by limping into a pot with a mid-range speculative hand anyway?

Too much of the "value" of JTs is wrapped up in draws it may flop, and too much of your effective play of draws lies in the ability to semi-bluff bet when you are oop. To effectively semi bluff, you really have to be able to "afford" at LEAST a half pot bet on the flop. Could you do that on your stack?

You gave yourself a very hard choice when the pot did limp down into your top straight, but you have to look at the size of the pot before that huge over bet. You gotta realize an opponent who sees the board straight there has sense enough to recognize that JT is the "nut" straight. Can he shove into your bet with less than that?

Probably not...

His big re-raise "polarized" his range, meaning he eiher flushed, or is bluffing. The size of the pot seems to be too small to really run the risk of a call with the amount of chips you had remaining, and the relatively small amount you had invested; it would have taken a pretty GREAT, or a pretty poor bluffer to be firing here on anything that could not beat JT.

At best I think you are chopping.

Now...

The PROBLEM with a hand like JTs is that it looks "prettier" than it actually is. What can you realistically EXPECT to flop with it though?

Any 1 pair hand is your most expected answer, but will you truly be happy with even a top pair and J or T kicker?

A straight draw? A flush draw? these are fine if you are going to semi bluff shove them off your stack size, but that is a risky play tbh...

So realisitcally you WANT to see a good 8 or 9 out draw, or a 2 pr+ hand. With JTs, that will happen about 25% of the time, but the vast majority of that 25% will be draws. If you have reaosn to believe a srong semi-bluff shove will work versus your opponents enough of the time to be worthwhile, then this isn't "bad", but without that info, you gotta find a better hand; one you can RAISE to enter, and commit on much easier if you hit.

If you WANT to limp, again you really want a hand that is easier to commit on, or release. Something like an AXs (the "x" size depending on the limp standards of the table), or a small pp. Those are the kinds of hands tha will either flop a nut draw, a top pair+ hand, or be very easy to release.

Last edited by JDean; Thu Mar 03, 2011 at 09:46 PM..
 
Old
Default
Thu Mar 03, 2011, 09:50 PM
(#4)
antlovesang1's Avatar
Since: May 2010
Posts: 931
i was in plus points so bsically that was the assumption i called

i limped as the table was kinda tight knit ( maybe i should have read into his hand a lil more as he would have put me on the str8 and way over bet to pressure me)

i dont see anything wrong with the limp if anything he was the jammier 1 limping aq suited

i just had the feeling make the hero call you double up and itm i guess
 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 04, 2011, 04:30 AM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by antlovesang1 View Post
i was in plus points so bsically that was the assumption i called

i limped as the table was kinda tight knit ( maybe i should have read into his hand a lil more as he would have put me on the str8 and way over bet to pressure me)

i dont see anything wrong with the limp if anything he was the jammier 1 limping aq suited

i just had the feeling make the hero call you double up and itm i guess
The "wrong" part about limping a hand like JT on a stack of your size is that it doesnt recognize that you are going to see MOST of the "good" flops for you being simply draws.

With a 7k stack at the 200/400 level, you really cannot play draws strongly as they should be played ("strongly" being relative, either calling or betting/raising). and the pair value of JT puts you in a tricky spot any time you flop 1 pair.

See?

With just under 30 BB, you MUST recognize that you are going to be at a committment point jsut about ANY time you see the turn...

Take a gander at Harrington, and his inference points ("M") for a more complete explaination...

Suffice it to say: more often than not you are either committing on a top pair.weak kicker hand, or a DRAW.

The top pair hands you make with JT are quite vulnerable, both because of kickers AND the fact someone with over cards may have odds to call you, and Draws are DRAWS...

I am certain I wasn't very clear in my first response, and I doubt this is much better. There ARE reasons to limp on a stack your size, but I really would rather have a hand that will be "easy" to fold or easy to shove if I do limp...

JTs just will not give me that kind of "easy" decision on very many flops.

A nut flush draw, and 1 board over...on your stack I'm going.

A top pair with a flush draw, again, I'm going on your stack.

A flopped set, I am DEFINATELY going.

A top pair J, with a T kicker, or an open ended STR draw, or non-nut flush draw- I'm not so happy aobut going...

...

I recognize those comments are NOT really germane to your posited question, but I really think the SHOULD be...

the actual answer for your question would be:

"He polarized himself, and is either bluffing, or on a hand that has you crished when he makes the big river shove. You need to look a the po, and guage the chance he is bluffing based on your prior observations. Not many people are shoving a naked T there, not when they can CALL, so it is more likely ou are chopping or busting, than you are to be doubling up."

But the REAL questions you should be asking is: "Did I really have to put myself into that spot out of position" and "if I had raised, might I have actually been able to get away from this easier"?
 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 04, 2011, 02:37 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
+1 to JD. Open limping here is a leak. Especially with antes out there. Raise or fold pre. If the table was nitty, then raise to exploit their nittiness.

The only thing I don't totally agree with JD is that his range is polarized. A decent player's range is polarized on the river. A bad player may shove a naked ten thinking "I have a straight". No, it doesn't make sense, but bad players do things that don't make sense all the time.

Dave
 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 04, 2011, 02:55 PM
(#7)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
why does nobody use the hand replayers?????????? i love reading through walls of text
 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 04, 2011, 03:05 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
why does nobody use the hand replayers?????????? i love reading through walls of text
They know that text hand histories are your passion, your raison d'etre, your joie de vivre! That and flipping crabby patties obv.

 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 04, 2011, 03:34 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
+1 to JD. Open limping here is a leak. Especially with antes out there. Raise or fold pre. If the table was nitty, then raise to exploit their nittiness.

The only thing I don't totally agree with JD is that his range is polarized. A decent player's range is polarized on the river. A bad player may shove a naked ten thinking "I have a straight". No, it doesn't make sense, but bad players do things that don't make sense all the time.

Dave
Ok Dave, I do see your point re: T shovers, especially in micro and free roll events.

I also could "see" a person on a set, or 2 pr, "panic betting" the board straight, but that is essentially a "bluff".

My point is though...

He is either BEHIND or AHEAD here, and the signs (the small pot) argue that he may well be ahead.
 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 04, 2011, 04:27 PM
(#10)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
They know that text hand histories are your passion, your raison d'etre, your joie de vivre! That and flipping crabby patties obv.

el oh el and my secret love for squidward
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com