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omaha 8/orB value...

 
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omaha 8/orB value... - Sun Mar 06, 2011, 12:36 AM
(#1)
hiphoplives's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 516
BronzeStar
how do i get value for this hand?......it seems every time i check this kinda turn, the board pairs and i split. this table had been limping preflop, and calling to the river ALOT. and it doesn't help that the player 44Rob is saying "fold, fold, fold " while there is action. wtf?? ...... should i have bet 5 cents on the river?
i dunno. any help appreciated.

PokerStars Game #58733076214: Omaha Hi/Lo Pot Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2011/03/06 0:21:34 ET
Table 'Isberga VIII' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: johnsmithx1 ($2.71 in chips)
Seat 3: dunzz ($2.96 in chips)
Seat 4: 44Rob ($1.27 in chips)
Seat 5: hiphoplives ($2.66 in chips)
Seat 6: zukmybaiiz ($3.44 in chips)
Seat 7: $uperNut$ ($4.66 in chips)
Seat 8: Pio- ($4.55 in chips)
Seat 9: Olegwhite0 ($0.98 in chips)
Pio-: posts small blind $0.01
Olegwhite0: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hiphoplives [Kc 5d 5h Ah]
johnsmithx1: folds
dunzz: folds
SnoopyNShade leaves the table
44Rob: calls $0.02
hiphoplives: calls $0.02
zukmybaiiz: calls $0.02
$uperNut$: folds
Pio-: calls $0.01
Olegwhite0: checks
*** FLOP *** [4c Qh 3h]
Pio-: checks
Olegwhite0: checks
44Rob: checks
hiphoplives: bets $0.04
zukmybaiiz: calls $0.04
Pio-: folds
Olegwhite0: folds
44Rob: calls $0.04
*** TURN *** [4c Qh 3h] [2h]
44Rob: checks
44Rob said, "fold"
hiphoplives: bets $0.04
44Rob said, "fold fold fold"
zukmybaiiz: folds
44Rob: calls $0.04
*** RIVER *** [4c Qh 3h 2h] [8s]
44Rob: checks
hiphoplives: bets $0.14
44Rob: folds
Uncalled bet ($0.14) returned to hiphoplives
hiphoplives collected $0.29 from pot
hiphoplives: shows [Kc 5d 5h Ah] (HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 5,4,3,2,A)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.30 | Rake $0.01
Board [4c Qh 3h 2h 8s]
Seat 1: johnsmithx1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: dunzz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: 44Rob folded on the River
Seat 5: hiphoplives collected ($0.29)
Seat 6: zukmybaiiz folded on the Turn
Seat 7: $uperNut$ (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Pio- (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Olegwhite0 (big blind) folded on the Flop
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 10:58 AM
(#2)
Cyis's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 193
BronzeStar
I can't see that you played it poorly. You had a decent starting hand with a pair and suited ace with another wheel card with lots of outs on the flop you could have pushed maybe a lil more than 4c as m experience they'll call you down more times than not in that blind level but the ~50% of the pot bet was a good choice nonetheless. On the turn you've made your nut hi and lo so you're pretty much freerollin' so I would have opened up more with 21c in the pot I would have probably bet a bit more than 4c again but if you're going for value that would be like hanging a carrot on a stick to a donkey.
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 12:50 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
The first difference you may have considered is NOT playing the hand at all.

A55K with only 1 nut flush is not an awesome hand for O/8.

1) If you flop a set, you will never have a "non-vulnerable" top set (only way for you to have top set is if there is a 2/3/4 board, making a STR possible). Bottom set is much more likely.

2) If you flop a low draw, you will RARELY hold the nut low draw.

3) If you flop a straight draw, it will almost always be a gut shot straight draw.

4) You have no counterfeit "protection" with only 2 non-nut low cards.

With all that said, for 2c in a micro stakes game to see a flop with the possibility of flopping the nut flush draw, against opponents who are highly likely to pay you off with lesser flushes (if you make yours), there are probably WORSE things you can do than play this hand here.

Now...

You do hit the flop pretty nicely.

I don't disagree with your flop bet on your "nut/nut" drawing hand at all; it seems well measured, and doesn't put a whole lot into the pot for you to lose if you miss your outs. The best thing of it is that it does put SOME extra value in if you hit.

The turn bet is probably too small though...

The pot stands at 22c after your "fluffer" bet. You now DO have the "nut/nut" hand, and only 1 "customer" remains. You bet only 4c though, why?

The only thing you are "worried" about here is a set or 2 pr Full House drawing against you. Even if the board does pair, you are still on the nut low as well, and with A5 being the nut low, the chance of being "quartered" on low is pretty small (especially with YOU holding 2 x 5's). I suppose this is why you put a small bet out...

Well, to me, if you are playing at this level it is all aobut betting for value in these spots. Al Spath, the "Dean" of old PSO, had a saying for these spots: "BYOB" Bring our own BET.

When you hit this big, you can often rely on the "mistakes" of your opponent to pay you off if there is ANY chance for them to catch. If you wait though, they tend to wake up to the fact that 2 pair or a set is no good on a 3 of a suit board. This is often true in Hold 'em, but is ESPECIALLY in a draw heavy game like O/8.

I really think you were facing 2 pr or a set, and that means with 1 card to come you may well have been paid off on an 11c bet, and maybe even as much as 15c. By the time the river comes though, and you DO fire that larger bet, the opponent knows he has no chance to catch up if you have a flush...so he folds.

So I'd say if you ARE going to play a semi-weak hand like this one, and if you do hit it strongly, you MUST do what you can to get more value in as early as possible. For any "loose" type play, value extraction when you do hit a big hand is absolutely CRITICAL, or you run the risk of spewing away chips on the much more frequent times those marginal hands do not hi so strongly...

So next time:

BYOB!

Last edited by JDean; Sun Mar 06, 2011 at 03:53 PM..
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 01:06 PM
(#4)
Cyis's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 193
BronzeStar
While not a PL game... Here was one of my hands from last night on the FL O/8 table where I freerolled my way to the river and got paid off very nicely.


PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, A, Q, 3
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, MP1 3-bets, MP2 calls, CO (poster) calls, Button caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO (poster) calls

Flop: (21.4 SB) 3, 3, Q (5 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls

Turn: (20.7 BB) 3 (5 players)
Hero bets, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls

River: (23.7 BB) 9 (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, 1 fold

Total pot: $2.57 (25.7 BB) | Rake: $0.10
Main pot: $2.57 (25.7 BB) between Hero and MP2, won by Hero
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 03:14 PM
(#5)
freddysw's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 179
BronzeStar
Hi Hiphop I am working hard on learning this game as well and grinding away at 05/10c PL and just starting to feel my way around 10/25c level.

I have no problem with you calling with your starting hand but your bet on the turn is way to small, I would suggest being as aggressive as you can when you make the nuts, a pot size bet here is a no brainer and puts the pressure on the player that may have the full house draw. Also at the micro level I have been amazed how many players will call a strong turn bet with the 2nd nut low or 2nd flush draw - the lure of winning half the pot will get those suckers every time.

Omaha PL is about trying to get someone's entire stack, so you need to pick starting hands that have potential to scoop the whole pot, play from position as much as possible and when you hit the flop or have a great draw to the nuts bet it strong, pot size bets are usually best.

Also I suggest getting the book POT LIMIT OMAHA POKER by Jeff Hwang - if you want to learn any form of omaha this is required reading. Good luck this is a great game to play and build your BR there are a lot of horrible omaha players out there - I'm probably one of them but I'm working on it.

Last edited by freddysw; Sun Mar 06, 2011 at 03:30 PM.. Reason: spelling
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 03:52 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyis View Post
While not a PL game... Here was one of my hands from last night on the FL O/8 table where I freerolled my way to the river and got paid off very nicely.


PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, A, Q, 3
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, MP1 3-bets, MP2 calls, CO (poster) calls, Button caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO (poster) calls

Flop: (21.4 SB) 3, 3, Q (5 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls

Turn: (20.7 BB) 3 (5 players)
Hero bets, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls

River: (23.7 BB) 9 (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, 1 fold

Total pot: $2.57 (25.7 BB) | Rake: $0.10
Main pot: $2.57 (25.7 BB) between Hero and MP2, won by Hero
Limit can be a lot different in how you extract value from really big hands like your quads.

Oftentimes, if there is a better in front of you, and multiple callers, you can see more value from CALLING and allowing that multitude of people to continue calling along.

Had you raised your turn quads, you could well have lost a few "customers", and with the betting dynamic as it was, you didn't "miss" any bets.

There can be nothing sweeter than holding the nuts in a Limit game, while you are "caught" between 2 people in a raise war!

 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 05:33 PM
(#7)
hiphoplives's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 516
BronzeStar
JDean........i play alot of omaha hi lo .........believe me i know this was not a great starting hand.
but that wasn't my question.

I DID hit the nut on the Turn........i didn't bet so low because i thought i was beat, i bet so low because i wanted all the chasers that had been chasing every hand to call the whole way like they had been. that is why i thought about checking the turn and then no matter what the river betting about half the pot, in hopes that maybe my weak bets showed some weakness while i held the nut hi and low (on the turn)...but i decided to bet the turn anyways. (and there were 2 other players on the turn, not 1 other, thats why i bet small, in hopes that they both would call.)

i guess my question was on how much to bet on the river for value....not up to the turn.

i am not used to playing super low limit omaha hi lo like this. lol i have realized they will call just about anything now. so maybe i shoulda bet more on the turn.

Last edited by hiphoplives; Sun Mar 06, 2011 at 05:40 PM..
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 07:35 PM
(#8)
Cyis's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 193
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddysw View Post
Also I suggest getting the book POT LIMIT OMAHA POKER by Jeff Hwang - if you want to learn any form of omaha this is required reading. Good luck this is a great game to play and build your BR there are a lot of horrible omaha players out there - I'm probably one of them but I'm working on it.
Funny you should mention this particular book as I just got done reading it myself after my initial steps int Omaha playing after only reading the chapter in Super Systems II on the subject. It really was insightful and opened my eyes to how to think about my starting hands better. I particularly liked the hand quizzes at the end of the chapters as it explained not just play this hand or that one, but what made the hand better to play it this way or not to play it.
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 08:09 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiphoplives View Post
JDean........i play alot of omaha hi lo .........believe me i know this was not a great starting hand.
but that wasn't my question.

I DID hit the nut on the Turn........i didn't bet so low because i thought i was beat, i bet so low because i wanted all the chasers that had been chasing every hand to call the whole way like they had been. that is why i thought about checking the turn and then no matter what the river betting about half the pot, in hopes that maybe my weak bets showed some weakness while i held the nut hi and low (on the turn)...but i decided to bet the turn anyways. (and there were 2 other players on the turn, not 1 other, thats why i bet small, in hopes that they both would call.)

i guess my question was on how much to bet on the river for value....not up to the turn.

i am not used to playing super low limit omaha hi lo like this. lol i have realized they will call just about anything now. so maybe i shoulda bet more on the turn.
see my answer again: somewhere between 10c and 15c is probably getting paid, and wins you about double what you actually won.
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 11:37 AM
(#10)
hiphoplives's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 516
BronzeStar
ahhh......thanks JDean, i see now......
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 01:15 PM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
That is 10c to 15c ON THE TURN.

The key vs micro players is to get value in early, because they will call lite with ANY chance to spike.

By the river, all their hopes are gone, and even true died in the wool knuckle draggers can wake to the fact they are probably beat.
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 03:05 PM
(#12)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,487
(Head Trainer)
I agree with JD. This is a fold preflop imo, and as played bet more on the turn. The chasers are chasing frequently in this game, .04c into this size pot is letting them off the hook by making their chasing a very small mistake.
 

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