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How you Play this?

 
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How you Play this? - Sun Mar 06, 2011, 05:31 PM
(#1)
TOO2COO's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,882
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My thoughts on this were I not want to see Ax hit there X so was willing to make them Pay to Play as 85% of the time i not Check raising with a Full House but figure this was the spot to do that

How would you have played this flop and whats your thinking on Playing that way?

PokerStars Game #58774397575: Tournament #409020010, $200+$15 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (75/150) - 2011/03/06 17:09:16 ET
Table '409020010 4519' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Stiff (9030 in chips)
Seat 2: MarMoss (10600 in chips)
Seat 3: Buds Rule (11495 in chips)
Seat 4: hellzito (10350 in chips)
Seat 5: wheaty13 (9825 in chips)
Seat 6: ALIJENAB (9425 in chips)
Seat 7: M_power1991 (7530 in chips)
Seat 8: TOO2COO (8805 in chips)
Seat 9: aceman_43 (12020 in chips)
wheaty13: posts small blind 75
ALIJENAB: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TOO2COO [Tc Th]
M_power1991: folds
TOO2COO: calls 150
aceman_43: folds
Stiff: folds
MarMoss: calls 150
Buds Rule: calls 150
hellzito: folds
wheaty13: folds
ALIJENAB: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ts Ah Ac]
ALIJENAB: checks
TOO2COO: checks
MarMoss: bets 300
Buds Rule: folds
ALIJENAB is disconnected
ALIJENAB is connected
ALIJENAB: calls 300
TOO2COO: raises 1950 to 2250
MarMoss: folds
ALIJENAB: folds
Uncalled bet (1950) returned to TOO2COO
TOO2COO collected 1575 from pot
TOO2COO: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1575 | Rake 0
Board [Ts Ah Ac]
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 07:23 PM
(#2)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I would not have played it much differently I think.

The big fear off course is the drawing Ace with any card, and with a raiser and a flat caller I could see no opportunity to squeeze and isolate one of them. I would hazard a guess that neither of them had the ace and were probably on straight draws but the only way to find that out for certain was by going all in. If one of them had had the ace, I think that they would have called, because your ten is so well disguised. So I think that when you went all in they thought you had the ace.

To try and slow play this hand though and just call or make a 3X reraise I feel is way too dangerous. It is better to win the pot of 1575 rather than end up with nothing.
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 07:37 PM
(#3)
TOO2COO's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,882
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i never went all in

I just raised it a little over the pot assuming 1 of the 2 would stay or push for sure
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 07:55 PM
(#4)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
I like the play, reasonable bet, just unlucky nobody held an A
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 08:02 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Misread something so reasoning is below in the next post.

Last edited by Deleted user; Sun Mar 06, 2011 at 08:53 PM.. Reason: wrote my reason wrong
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 08:35 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Brian,

I think your check raise amount is fine.

This type of hand is one where you are likely to get "paid" whatever C/R amount you want to choose (except maybe a shove), or you are not really getting paid anything.

Right up front, your hand strength is enough for you to not really want to win a "small" pot. This board is un-coordinated enough (no flush draws, only gut shot STR draws) to make it relatively un-likely that someone will call a lead bet by you in this small pot w/o an Ace. That means there is really nothing wrong at all with trying to induce a bet from someone behind you who may try to represent the Ace.

When you do see the pot grow from the initial half pot bet (and the call), your concern over Ax spiking is definately reason enough to go ahead and take down the 1275 that is now in there with your C/R.

Sklansky's "rules" for slow playing include mention that you do NOT want to artifically "push" a slow play if there are draws that can beat you (x for an Ax), and if the pot is relatively large.

As I stated at the start of this: if you ARE facing Ax, he (EITHER opponent still in) is probably calling this amount, and you then do not really have a problem getting a good stiff amount in on the turn with a lead.

They didn't call however, so you probably got as much into this pot as you could without having an aggro-bluffer opponent, or doing anything excessively "risky".
 
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Sun Mar 06, 2011, 09:04 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
Flop - You need to think about the villians range when deciding on calling or check/raising.
I prefer calling since you can get away from the hand if it starts smelling funny on the turn.
For example ALIJENAB starts raising or betting would seem fishy to me on the turn.

If you call the flop you are then getting a cbet out of Marmoss on the turn and ALIJENAB might call as well.Leaving more chips in the pot for a light check raise.

Im willing to play a lot more freely post flop,since I have faith in my post flop play.
The way you played this was timid and would signal me to be more aggressive in certain spot against you.Your goal is to get as many chips as you can in these and they usually dont come easy in the Millis I have played.
To flop a fullhouse on the flop and push every one out is a leak in my eyes.
Be interesting to see what people think about that.

I think it would be cool if you could bring up some stats on the villians if you run a hud/hem!

-Hands on Villian
-PFR
-Cbet
-Aggression
- Won without showdown

Think that would give us a better read on how to play this hand more.
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 02:44 AM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtyrubberz View Post
Flop - You need to think about the villians range when deciding on calling or check/raising.
I prefer calling since you can get away from the hand if it starts smelling funny on the turn.
For example ALIJENAB starts raising or betting would seem fishy to me on the turn.

If you call the flop you are then getting a cbet out of Marmoss on the turn and ALIJENAB might call as well.Leaving more chips in the pot for a light check raise.

Im willing to play a lot more freely post flop,since I have faith in my post flop play.
The way you played this was timid and would signal me to be more aggressive in certain spot against you.Your goal is to get as many chips as you can in these and they usually dont come easy in the Millis I have played.
To flop a fullhouse on the flop and push every one out is a leak in my eyes.
Be interesting to see what people think about that.

I think it would be cool if you could bring up some stats on the villians if you run a hud/hem!

-Hands on Villian
-PFR
-Cbet
-Aggression
- Won without showdown

Think that would give us a better read on how to play this hand more.
With an AAT flop, and Brian holding TT he is far less likel to see the opponent holding AT for a better boat.

Sure, AA is crushing the Tens full here, but it was limped to open: from oop, AA is more likely to RAISE pre-flop rather than takling it to "war" multi-way. So AA isn;t really likely either...

Based on those facts, Brian is prefectly ok to be checking this flop with intent to fire if it checks around, OR seeking an immediate C/R if someone does bet.

I think it was well played, as his C/R amount is probably getting paid by a rag A, so why not get the value in there arly, before a face card dries up his action from an >A9 hand?

Not "ragging" on your thinking Diry, but once ther eis the half pot bet AND the call, Brian has no more "reason" to not fire. I do agree on this big hit he WANTS more than the 4 limps in, but when he gets that, take it down or get someone with a worse hand to pay off NOW.
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 04:13 AM
(#9)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
With an AAT flop, and Brian holding TT he is far less likel to see the opponent holding AT for a better boat.

Agreed he is ahead of most hands,which means he can slow play this one.

Sure, AA is crushing the Tens full here, but it was limped to open: from oop, AA is more likely to RAISE pre-flop rather than takling it to "war" multi-way. So AA isn;t really likely either...

Agree

Based on those facts, Brian is prefectly ok to be checking this flop with intent to fire if it checks around, OR seeking an immediate C/R if someone does bet.
You can bet or check its not really that big of a deal.Check raising this hand on the flop is not something I like to see here.Its to strong and Ace rag will call >40%

I think it was well played, as his C/R amount is probably getting paid by a rag A, so why not get the value in there arly, before a face card dries up his action from an >A9 hand?
A ace rag hand will pay off way more on a checked flop on the turn.

Not "ragging" on your thinking Diry, but once ther eis the half pot bet AND the call, Brian has no more "reason" to not fire. I do agree on this big hit he WANTS more than the 4 limps in, but when he gets that, take it down or get someone with a worse hand to pay off NOW.
The reason you dont fire 1/2 pot is that players can not read that if they are weaker players.
It looks like a huge bet.I know cause I lose a lot of weaker players by betting 50+% of a pot a lot.
Instantly kick my self for doing it.I break a lot of poker rules when dealing with certain players.
I will min-raise them and open limp(Gasp I know I have told many people it is bad).
Playing bad attracts more action and people perceive you a certain way most of the time preflop and flop.By then they have there mind set on how good you are and how strong the flop hit you.
Anyways back to the hand...You gain nothing by taking it down on the flop and on the turn you could quite possibly stack one of them.Min-raise if you are going to check raise the flop.

Bit of a ramble and my advice is not always fitting for newer players,since I am quite often thinking about meta game and how this hand will pay me later on in the tourney.
Im a little unorthodox with my play as well,so it is not always by the book.

I have played this tourney and have had 5 players that I fear having at my table all together.
Other times its a complete donk table,its all luck of the draw.From what I have read the Sat.
players added a lot more looser play.

Still interested in tracker/hud/hem stats if available for a better read.
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 01:48 PM
(#10)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtyrubberz View Post
The reason you dont fire 1/2 pot is that players can not read that if they are weaker players.
It looks like a huge bet.I know cause I lose a lot of weaker players by betting 50+% of a pot a lot.
Instantly kick my self for doing it.I break a lot of poker rules when dealing with certain players.
I will min-raise them and open limp(Gasp I know I have told many people it is bad).
Playing bad attracts more action and people perceive you a certain way most of the time preflop and flop.By then they have there mind set on how good you are and how strong the flop hit you.
Anyways back to the hand...You gain nothing by taking it down on the flop and on the turn you could quite possibly stack one of them.Min-raise if you are going to check raise the flop.

Bit of a ramble and my advice is not always fitting for newer players,since I am quite often thinking about meta game and how this hand will pay me later on in the tourney.
Im a little unorthodox with my play as well,so it is not always by the book.

I have played this tourney and have had 5 players that I fear having at my table all together.
Other times its a complete donk table,its all luck of the draw.From what I have read the Sat.
players added a lot more looser play.

Still interested in tracker/hud/hem stats if available for a better read.
I do see your point Dirty, but I am using Sklasky's "rules" for slow playing.

Rule #1: Do not slow play in "large" pots.

Once the pot is built to a reasonable level, a slow play becomes less effective; it is better to "win" what you can right then. The 300 bet, and the call behind Brian built the pot to the point it represented about a 15% increase to his stack. That is a pretty decent chip up off an 8800 stack.

Rule #2: Do not slow play when there is a significant "threat" of the free cards you may give will result in you being out drawn.

There was not a "big" out draw threat here, but if an opponent does hold an Ax, there is a "threat". If no opponent holds an Ax Brian has little likelihood of being called, but at least he got SOME "extra value" in. I think this is where our MAJOR dis-agreement lies...

You are advocating the additional risk of a flat call in hopes of inducing another bet, while I am saying his immediate check raise is perfectly valid because a) the pot is built and b) there is a "threat" (albeit small).

To me Dirty, your suggestion for playing this gives an additional "free card chance", and icreases the risk. I do not necessarily like that line (although I CAN see why you are proposing it; please do not think I'm saying youa re WAY off base here!) because...

Rule #3: You must have a reasonable expectation, when out of position, that an OPPONENT will bet behind you OR that he will not otherwise CALL a bet, to make a slow play effective.

Once there is the half pot bet and the call, Brian can reasonably "assume" one of the opponents probably holds an Ace; if not oh well.

If he check/calls here though, you can ALSO reasonably assume that UNLESS one of the 2 remaining opponents holds an A, Brian's out of position check/call IS with a hand holding an Ace. This means there is very little chance Brian will get paid if he continues the slow play OR takes the turn lead. If an opponent does hold an Ace, why not get value in NOW, when it might be perceived as a "bluff" and get called by Ax?

Remember: these are $215 players, not micro stakes mouth breathers; 4215 players tend to know how to fold better.

So extending the Check/Raise to the turn is not likely to result in any more value in this pot at all UNLESS it does increase the risk, albeit slightly. Why increase the risk at all without increasing the value as well?

Brian's line at least gave him the CHANCE of getting more value in.
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 02:02 PM
(#11)
Deleted user
Last week was full of Sat. players which turned it into the 1/4 Mil bingofest.
So looking at it with that info,you know 15% of your stack is not good enough pay off for a fullhouse.
Sklansky is the man when it comes to poker but I think people play to rigid when they think about
poker rules.The more creative you can be post flop the more you will make.

Just a difference in style and thinking.
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 02:08 PM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtyrubberz View Post
Last week was full of Sat. players which turned it into the 1/4 Mil bingofest.
So looking at it with that info,you know 15% of your stack is not good enough pay off for a fullhouse.
Sklansky is the man when it comes to poker but I think people play to rigid when they think about
poker rules.The more creative you can be post flop the more you will make.

Just a difference in style and thinking.
'xactly.

And YOUR way might have led to another "bluff shot" too.

believe me, I'd be a LOT more partial to your suggested line though, with 2 of a suit on the board...
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 04:54 PM
(#13)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Good discussion, thought I'd add some bullet points:

-Would MUCH rather raise preflop than limp in EP with TT in a vacuum. If you have a good reason for open limping (that is player or table dynamic specific) that's fine.

-As played, I would actually rather lead right out on the flop. Why is everyone only considering check/calling and check/raising? If someone has an ace, we will get at least called (and raised on the turn) or raised immediately. But leading also looks "weak" to many fishy players because "no one ever bets trips here" (they think this because THEY wouldn't bet trips).

-If we are going to check, I much prefer dirty's check/call line to check/raising. Yes c/r gets more money in against Ax, but that's not really a concern because we'll get more monies in against Ax later in the hand as well. c/r blows everything else out however. 2 broadway cards that are peeling can't call (and we want them to see the turn card, as they are drawing dead to a bigger running full house and have 4 outs to make a costly 2nd best hand). We take the bluff away from them, again we want bluffers to have an opportunity to keep bluffing. And we scare off anyone with the case ten, another hand drawing almost or totally dead.

-The only problem with check/calling, is when we do spring to live it will look very strong. But, the flop check-raise looks like a very strong hand anyway, at least c/c gives our opponetns the chance to make something.

-We don't put money in because we're "afraid" of Ax drawing out on us, we put money in to extract value from Ax. In this particular hand I'm not sure Ax matters much, if someone has it money will be going in no matter how we execute, usually (see next point).

-There is one MAJOR exception to the above point though... Ax in the hands of another slowplayer. Sometimes when 2 players both flop really strong, if they both slowplay then no money goes in and the final pot is much smaller than it could be. This is a disaster for the better "monster". It's also the reason I like to lead these spots.

-In specific, I like to lead for a few reasons:
1) It prevents the double slow play from keeping the pot small by ensuring money starts going in
2) People tend to give you less credit initially since they expect you to slow play this big a hand
3) I would like to execute some steals in similar spots, so I'm going to lead my big hands too.

-The Sklansky thing about securing a big pot now rather than risking someone drawing out on you is being misapplied imo.
1) This pot is NOT big yet, it's actually quite small relative to the hand strength of the monster we've flopped
2) There is little risk to us being outdrawn here, if someone has Ax they have 3 outs on the turn and 6 on the river. Any 2 broadway cards have 10 outs to improve to a 2nd best hand that will give additional action, any underpair has 2 outs to getting stacked. Any 2 suited cards can pick up a flush draw on the turn and will continue (drawing dead to a costly 2nd best hand on the river). Our hand strength warrents playing a big pot, we should do whatever necessary to facilitate that (checking might vs. aggressive players or in some situations, but it risks no money going in this round AND neither player raised our weak preflop limp to isolate us so how aggressive can they be?).
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 05:05 PM
(#14)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
When Sklansky talks about slow playing being less effective in a big pot, what he's talking about is that if the pot is large, people will generally try to fight for it and often be correct to do so mathematically. Depending on your hand strength, you may want to secure the pot right.now. Examples:

-If the pot contains $1000, and there's only $5 left to bet, you would be ecstatic if the villain would fold with more cards to come... there's no point in assuming any risk at all to being outdrawn for an extra five bucks when the risk is a 1K pot (I know ridic example, just taking a super extreme case).

-If the pot contained $5 and there's 1K left to bet, slow playing makes a ton of sense as winning a $5 pot with a strong holding and 1K behind is major anti-value.

In this case the pot is only 1200 when it gets back to us and we have over 8600 left to bet, with a bona fide monster that we can comfortably play a big pot with. c/r them all out is not good. Playing scared is not good. dirty called it a weak play. I call it value-cutting yourself. Same thing in this case.
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 05:08 PM
(#15)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Remember: these are $215 players, not micro stakes mouth breathers; 4215 players tend to know how to fold better..
This is true about the Warm up, the 2nd chance, and in fact most $200 online mtt's. But it is distinctly not true about specifically the Sunday mil. The reason is the Sunday mil at least half the field are small stakes players that have sattied in for $3 or less. That's true every Sunday, vastly more so for this special 5M guaranteed event. There is a lot of super dead money in the Sunday mil.
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 07:25 PM
(#16)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
2) There is little risk to us being outdrawn here, if someone has Ax they have 3 outs on the turn and 6 on the river.
LOL, -1 for TheLangolier. Ax has 4 outs and 7 outs respectively.
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 07:31 PM
(#17)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Was thinking about this hand in the car, here's another way to look at why slowplaying the flop with a check/call does not increase our risk more than only extremely marginally.

Let's make the assumption that neither player is folding an ace to the flop check/raise. Not always true in practice obviously but a reasonable assumption.

If we don't expect to fold out Ax with a check raise, what range of hands will they have that we ARE folding out? (i.e. what range would they limp with, bet or call the flop lead with and then fold to a c/r?) Broadways, Tx, medium and small pairs mostly, plus the bettor can have a stone bluff. These are the hands we're allowing to see the turn by not check/raising. None of these have any immediate outs to beat us. At best they have to catch perfect perfect. So our additional risk in check/calling is largely negligable.
 
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Mon Mar 07, 2011, 10:42 PM
(#18)
TOO2COO's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,882
(Super-Moderator)
Thanks much to everyone for your comments

Dirty you made some points of interest that hit the very core of my game and give me knew way to see things thru your eyes as so many times i find my self wearing blinders and Seeing things thru others Eyes is alway a bigg + ty much

Dave as always you tend to lead me down a path that i some how always wander from I wish i could have a few more classes with you as if i could keep with what you and Al have taught me over the years I would be a Winning Player as always Thanks Much for taking the time to share your thoughts with me


Thanks again all one of my Favorite things in my 7 years at PSO has always been they way we all take time to help each other because thats truly Priceless
 
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Tue Mar 08, 2011, 06:36 AM
(#19)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Sorry TOO I was a bit worse for wear on Sunday night and misread the hand.

Very interesting discussion though and has definitely made me think.

TC
 

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