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Should I have waited until the turn?

 
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Should I have waited until the turn? - Tue Mar 08, 2011, 06:30 AM
(#1)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962


This was my last hand yesterday evening. I had been playing at three cash game tables for about an hour. I had cashed out at the other two for about a 10$ profit, which just about covered my tournament and sitngo entries (perhaps I should say losses) during the day.

At one point I was up to about 7$ on this table, but got my pocket Qs crippled by an Ace on the river, against AQ, and just could not drop the Qs at that point though I knew I was beat. I know that was a bad play and it is a flaw I have to eradicate.

This hand was about 2 rotations later.

The winner/villain was very tight aggressive, playing at four other tables and two tournies. The rest of the group were all on multiple tables, but their starting range was wider and I had taken down some good pots.


To the hand itself: 6,7 diamonds is a favourite limp in hand of mine, and when the flop came, I was wary of the 8s, but just called the initial raiser. When the villian raised the bet, I knew he had the 8, I was tempted to just call, but I feared another five or his other card on the turn. I raised all in at that point trying to force a fold.

In hindsight, I probably should have just called on the flop, and raised on the turn, but I feel he would still have called. Any 5,9 or Ace and he would have won the hand. It was sure sickening to hit the straight on the turn and then for what seemed like an eternity, I was praying that he did not hit his outs.

Could I have played the hand any differently and won the pot?

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks

TC

Last edited by topthecat; Tue Mar 08, 2011 at 06:33 AM..
 
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?? - Tue Mar 08, 2011, 08:55 AM
(#2)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
the only thing i will say - is that if i gonna get it all in on a draw- is i wanna be drawing to the nutz-gl monk.
 
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Tue Mar 08, 2011, 02:48 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
A couple key things imo:

Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat
I knew he had the 8,
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat
I raised all in at that point trying to force a fold.
Re-examine this logic. You're playing a short stack, no one is folding an 8 here if you put a gun to their head.

Quote:
In hindsight, I probably should have just called on the flop, and raised on the turn, but I feel he would still have called.
Again, see previous comment (and in fact, once you have the straight, you absolutely WANT him to call with 8x now as this action is very +EV for you).

But regardless, what you actually should have done is folded. If your read is that he is very strong to make this raise, then you are calling for a 8 out draw to the straight, none of which gives you the nuts (you're already drawing dead vs. 55, and 98s has to be in his range here which would remove the 9's as outs). And you will only get to see 1 card, as he'll bet you off the draw on the turn anyway if you call. Raising all in at least allows you to see both cards, but again if he's as strong as you feel, jamming is only charging yourself the maximium to draw (at a draw that is thin anyway on a paired board). It is not a semi-bluff if there is no "bluff" component to the play.


Quote:
Could I have played the hand any differently and won the pot?
Poker isn't about winning pots. It's about making +EV decisions. Shift your mental approach to the game. The attempt to win every pot you play is what led to an ill advised all in shove in an attempt to push out a hand you felt was very strong (and if true was never folding to a shove).

Very good hand for posting, thanks for putting it out there. A lot of people have similar problems.

Dave
 
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Tue Mar 08, 2011, 03:53 PM
(#4)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
In my defense I would just say that his impression of me was very tight as well. I laid down pocket Jacks, when the board flopped 9, 10, Jack and another multiplayer shoved all in. He showed the KQ and I showed the Js.

Maybe I should have been calling with my three jacks in that instance?

I felt that my opponent may have put me on pocket 5s, obviously he was smarter than that.

I need to really learn about EV. Is that expected value?

Thanks for the input Dave.
 
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Tue Mar 08, 2011, 04:31 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Image isnt really something people follow at 2NL.
The good players are usually multi tabling and playing premium hands.
The donks are not aware of much at all.

When a board pairs I slow down unless I am against a complete drooler.

The point that is being made mainly is cash is a different beast than tourney play.
I dont chase draws ever at this lvl,the money comes in other ways.
Play your strong hands and you will come out on the plus side.
Chase draws and you are going to have a long road back to Even.
 

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