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Folding My Set

 
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Folding My Set - Fri Mar 11, 2011, 10:35 PM
(#1)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
The dynamic of this hand from the very second the BB reraised preflop had red flags going off in my head. The instant we hit the flop I was having visions of my entire stack leaving me, even before anyone bet. Rarely do I see 4 people go into a 5xBB raised hand. I knew it was bad news... how do you guys think I handled it?

 
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Sat Mar 12, 2011, 08:01 AM
(#2)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I like the fold.

It would be interesting to hear Dave's view on this one and hear how he would have played this it.
 
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?? - Sat Mar 12, 2011, 08:19 AM
(#3)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
obv. good fold- microstakes aside-- your min raise from the sb isnt gonna get either of the 2 limpers to fold-and with 33 i want to isolate 1 player, so if i dont hit a set i can still represent a hand-- and also note- 1 guy was new to the table and posted the BB OOP- red flags right there- obv. cstat atc player- i dont play much cash- but when i do i always wait for the bb- maybe 2 and watch the table- this guy is obv. a major fish- note that right away-- when the BB 5x your min raise and the other 2 call him- 33 is going into the muck then and there--- gl- monk..
 
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Sat Mar 12, 2011, 10:38 AM
(#4)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyskunk4 View Post
obv. good fold- microstakes aside-- your min raise from the sb isnt gonna get either of the 2 limpers to fold-and with 33 i want to isolate 1 player, so if i dont hit a set i can still represent a hand-- and also note- 1 guy was new to the table and posted the BB OOP- red flags right there- obv. cstat atc player- i dont play much cash- but when i do i always wait for the bb- maybe 2 and watch the table- this guy is obv. a major fish- note that right away-- when the BB 5x your min raise and the other 2 call him- 33 is going into the muck then and there--- gl- monk..
Yeah the original problem I had is I couldn't really make a good raise preflop from the SB and 2 limpers. I would have to raise really big, and I just didn't feel like it with 33. People call big raises too often at $2 nl. I basically decided to limp, the 2 cent raise was kind of a limp + an intentional pot bloat. You know I never thought about folding preflop after the BB raised to 5BB, but now that you mention it maybe I should have! I figured the pot/implied odds warrented the call, but I think this hand really detailed why my implied odds were not so great.

Topthecat - Yeah I would really like to hear Dave's (or Randy's) view on this as well. I wanted to submit this to Dave's mailbag session he is having tonight, but missed the cutoff by 1 day.
 
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Tue Mar 15, 2011, 11:10 AM
(#5)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Hopefully they will get a look at it today as it is an interesting hand...
 
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Tue Mar 15, 2011, 11:38 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hey rocker let me look street by street...

Preflop: I don't mind the min-raise strictly as a pot sweetener.. by building a bigger base pot you facilitate winning a bigger pot when you do flop a set. Everyone is deep enough here to welcome the bigger base pot. No it won't fold anyone out like monkey said, but that's not the goal of this raise, the goal is to pad the pot a bit pre to facilitate bigger bets post when you flop a strong hand. This type of padding isn't necessary when the stacks are shallow but playing deep stacked cash it's fine.

BB makes it .10c and gets 2 callers. Back on us, .06c to call and we close the action. I like at least 15-1 implied odds to make the call set mining, given it's multi-way and out of position, more like 20-1 implied. We've got over 40-1 with just the preflop 3 bettor (and he's the most important one, as he's the player marked with the big hand who will be the one most likely to flop a big overpair to the board and give us healthy action on our set). This is a mandetory call, folding pre here is burning money.

On the flop: Wow. Normally I would say we never fold a set here. The BB can be expected to put a lot of chips in with AA-QQ as well as JJ, and the other player looks like a draw most likely. Add to that 2nl sees a lot of weird, irrational plays that make no sense, and I can't believe I would ever suggest folding a set on this board is good.

But, I think I am going to surprise myself. This action sequence is so specific to the BB holding exactly JJ, it's like his hand is face up. He 3b's preflop out of position in a 4 handed pot, seems likely a big pair. I would expect most players to continuation bet this board with QQ-AA to "protect their hand" (lol) and get value from their overpair, but he checks. Any time the preflop 3-bettor checks I'm asking myself why. 2 reasons... either he has AK/TT and is genuinely giving up since the pot is multi-way, or he flopped strong enough to slow play (which is likely not correct btw, but lots of players can't help themselves with top set). It checks to the last guy who makes a weak bet. You flat (meh I would raise). BB flats (still no change, peel 1 time with AK or TT at this price is reasonable). Other player check-raises. This is usually going to be a big drawing type hand, or a very strong hand like a set, and weighted to draws unless he never raises his draws (just more card combos of draws he could hold). Last guy flats the c/r, you flat the c/r, now the BB takes off the gloves and puts in a big 3b. So his action sequence on the flop went check, call, back 3b. This is a super strong line, pretty much the only hand he can hold here is JJ. Slightly lessor chance of 77 but more likely that he 3b preflop with JJ than 77. There just isn't any other hand that makes sense for the BB. The tricky part about this is that, as I said, in 2nl there's often players doing things that make no sense. But this specific action sequence just screams "I have the nuts". So ok, without a read that the BB is a complete irrational clown, I think this may be a good fold. (Pains me to say that about a set on this board in micros LOL... it won't be true probably 99 times out of 100, but this might be that 100th time).

Dave
 
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Wed Mar 16, 2011, 11:11 AM
(#7)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Thanks Dave! I definitely felt the BB must have a monster when he made that big reraise on the flop after showing weakness first. I wasn't really sure how well I handled things on the flop up to that moment. Normally I would be happy to get all-in with bottom set at $2nl tables. This time I was very worried about how many callers I got. The guy with the flush draw limped early then called the extra 8 cents, I figured he might very well have 77. A lot of $2 players like to limp with small to medium pocket pairs in early position. I'm not surprised he had the nut flush draw, at this limit people often respond in this way, rather than fold. I would agree that 99% of the time on that flop I'd be all-in. This was just a wierd one!

Last edited by RockerguyAA; Wed Mar 16, 2011 at 11:13 AM..
 

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