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Time Management in PSO Skill League

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Time Management in PSO Skill League - Sun Mar 13, 2011, 06:24 PM
(#1)
Takers12's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 10
Hi all,

I am relatively new to the PSO and have been playing in the League for about a month. I was reading on here that taking your time and using the clock as much as possible was a good move in the league, and I have to say my placings have improved.

However, is this bad etiquette? I have had a few complaints about the speed I am playing, which I have brushed off, but even though you have the ability to run the clock every hand to the last possible moment, is that bad form?

I'd appreciate your thoughts as the last thing I want to do is annoy a whole load of people!

Cheers
 
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Sun Mar 13, 2011, 07:02 PM
(#2)
AlienOvrlord's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 27
BronzeStar
How do you feel when someone else does it? It is annoying but it is a tool you can use. You said your ranking has improved. I've always wondered about this, it seems to me you'd want to see as many hands as possible before the blinds get very high and I think that's a reason why others will complain.

The only time I use up the clock is when I'm contemplating an all in move or I might consider doing it if I'm on the verge of making the money with a short stack.

Last edited by AlienOvrlord; Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 07:05 PM..
 
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Mon Mar 14, 2011, 09:03 AM
(#3)
johannfl's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 169
BronzeStar
i absolutely hate, i mean HATE when peple use the clock to improve their ranking. (as previously touched opon), in tourneys the blinds go up as time goes by. ive been stuck at tables where it seems everyone except me has agreed to use as much time as possible before playing. and i mean like in the middle of the tourney, not the bubble or anything. god i wanted to pull my hair out. i was having a cold streak, went from having a med stack to a small stack just cause of the blinds going up. im here to practice against a wide range of players and improve my poker first. the rankings come second for me.

if you wanna improve your ranking, quit the clock junk and try winning the tournament!
 
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clock - Mon Mar 14, 2011, 09:21 AM
(#4)
Astro705's Avatar
Astro705
(Odelay)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 461
Using your clock / and not dipping into the time bank is perfectly legit.

Personally I try to take the same amount of time every hand to act, and generally do not run the clock into the red.

Take your hand off your mouse, do not use the auto action buttons, use your time to think through your action each and every time.

do I raise? why?
do I fold? why?
do I call? why?
 
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Mon Mar 14, 2011, 11:37 AM
(#5)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
BronzeStar
I'll not use the clock in the early rounds as I believe it is counterproductive. I want to see as many hands as possible since I just might get one where I can double-up my stake.

However, I do plead guilty of using that 12-second timer to its max once the bubble is within thirty players. At that point, regardless of my stake, I'll delay. In most games where I do this, I do not need to use the additional time. That time I will use if my funds are insufficient for two orbits and we are under ten to the bubble.

Both those scenarios are rare for me. Usually I will be out before Round 11, which is usually when players go ITM.
 
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Mon Mar 14, 2011, 12:06 PM
(#6)
TARIQ06's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 380
BronzeStar
i absolutely hate, i mean HATE when peple use the clock to improve their ranking. (as previously touched opon), in tourneys the blinds go up as time goes by. ive been stuck at tables where it seems everyone except me has agreed to use as much time as possible before playing. and i mean like in the middle of the tourney, not the bubble or anything. god i wanted to pull my hair out. i was having a cold streak, went from having a med stack to a small stack just cause of the blinds going up. im here to practice against a wide range of players and improve my poker first. the rankings come second for me.

if you wanna improve your ranking, quit the clock junk and try winning the tournament!


if u hate then sit out until you are move to another table, the best of pso'ers use it and use it well and so do i, poker is about adjustments, skill,luck and time management..got to know when to shove, fold, or even sitout..so best advice to u sir, is it will never change, people will use all of their time and some people won't, u have to be able to make the adjustments to your table..
 
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Mon Mar 14, 2011, 06:49 PM
(#7)
johannfl's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 169
BronzeStar
just to clarify, im not talking about using the clock to your advantage to get itm. that's part of the game. that's just like someone playing way more passive during times to move up in place when itm. and im definetly not talking about people taking their time, analyzing their, options, play etc. i do that too, and im not one of those people that do the zzzzzzzzzzz crap. thats so annoying. im talking about people who have pretty much given up hope of getting even close to the bubble and are burning the clock as much as possible to move up in pso rank before theyre blinded out. at a table when one person does it...ok whatever. but when 6 or 7 people are doing it, its beyond annoying. if im down to 15 bb and im being dealt garbage for a while, the last thing i need is for the blinds to double, having to wait 4 min. to play the next hand. come on.
i have absolutly no clue how sitting out is part of tourney strategy?? or your advice to me to sit out when that happens. you do realize you still have to post blinds while sitting out, right?
finally, in a regular cash tourney it doesnt matter if your 1st out or 10,000th out. if your not itm its the same result; zero winnings. so that type of time mgmt. doesnt apply there either. the last thing you wanna do is sit on the clock (exception the bubble or itm) while others are adding to their stack and while the blinds are going up.
talking about itm, its almolst 20:00. gl. johann.
 
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Mon Mar 14, 2011, 06:58 PM
(#8)
soonerjon's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 11
BronzeStar
At best it is bad etiquette. In the PSO tournaments with their turbo structure I look at it as more a cheap angle shoot. While you are stalling you are not only blinding yourself down you are also blinding all of you table mates down. The PSO structure makes this particularly heinous given that mos people are short stacked relative to the blinds after about the third level.

There are tow particular situations I have seen a lot in my brief time playing PSO. The first is when we are nowhere near the bubble, say 30-50 places away. Invariably this is when at least one person at the table will begin the stalling angle shoot. Do you really think 40 people are going to go out while you are sitting their "thinking" about whether you should fold 8,3o UTG? The second is when we are hand for hand as the sole reason hand for and exists is to keep people from stalling like this.

If you don't think there is anything wrong with this, the next time you play live try waiting 45 seconds to a minute (roughly the equivalent of the on line time clock) for every decision you make. I guarantee it will not take long for the other players to either dissuade you from this practice or put in table change requests if you are playing cash. In a live tourney the will just start calling the clock on you so when you really do need to think a hand through you will not be given much time.
 
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Mon Mar 14, 2011, 09:59 PM
(#9)
TARIQ06's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 380
BronzeStar
u can't even compare this to live play with the time bank,but if u choose so, and yes i play live at the grand, beau rivage, luxor, and few other places and i see people take anywhere from 2-3 min to make a bet and no one says anything, now if they take 10-15 min than we may have a problem, with the amt of hands u see online vs live is a total different scenario..now during low level blinds i would not understand why a person will use all of their time bank, but close to itm and on the edge of gaining positive pts than negative i understand.. ask some of the top 50-100 players do they use their time bank and 80% will say yes.
 
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Mon Mar 14, 2011, 10:32 PM
(#10)
Dewski68's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 170
BronzeStar
When people complain to me about using my clock, I just tell them that that's what it's there for & I can use it how I see fit, thank you. That usually shuts them up!

Dawn
 
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Tue Mar 15, 2011, 02:23 AM
(#11)
ssuglia's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,393
BronzeStar
All I have to say is...





































zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 
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Wed Mar 16, 2011, 02:41 PM
(#12)
soonerjon's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 11
BronzeStar
Tariq - I find it really hard to believe that you have seen live players sit there for 2 to 3 minutes every hand only to open fold, or even fold to a raise. If every player at the table did this for every decision you would be playing less than 2 hands an hour. I have know problems with people taking time to think about hands on 4th or 5th street when either a scare card comes and/or their oppenent makes a big bet at an odd time.

For those of you who think tiem wasting is a strageic part of the tounament game. How would you feel if you were short stacked and the huge stack at the table was stalling every time the blind levels were within 30 seconds of going up? Since most players should be in puch fold mode anyway the big stack should try to make his opponents situaltion even more desperate. As an example, if I have a huge stack in the SB and the three palyers to my left do not know good tourney strategy and now have only 3 - 5 BB's each, it is perfectly ok for me to sit there and wait for the blind levels to go up thereby halving their relative stack sizes. Do you all really feel that this is proper poker?
 
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Wed Mar 16, 2011, 04:03 PM
(#13)
TARIQ06's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 380
BronzeStar
I was just saying, now you know evey player do not use the time bank, so i was not saying every player live will do this, just a scenario, i do play with the older guys so yeah they take a while to make a decision.. i don't think everybody use time bank in your pso games do they, i am talking about using it at the critical times, not the beginning levels, but anyway this subject been touch on so many times so who is right or wrong is up for grabs..i think making adjustments to your table is the key in getting to pso higher levels..gl to u anyway and may the force be with u...
 
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Using the clock - Mon Mar 28, 2011, 04:06 AM
(#14)
BOWLINGNINJA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 76
BronzeStar
Ok for those of you that are against people using their clock to their advantage even from the start of the tourney, obviously you do not understand entirely about the points system here at PSO. Yes every little bit of a percentage can help, and if you don't believe me just take a look at last months difference between 1st and 2nd place, that difference was less than .25 points. Are you going to actually sit there and tell me that the person that finished in 2nd place could be thinking about what could have been if they used their time just even for 1 extra second on each tourney? In at least one of those that extra second could have had 1 or more people get knocked out and had that happened they would have been the winner for the month. Believe me when you finish so close to a jump in the money you too will look at what you could have done different. You do realize that you get minus points for finishing in a certain position don't you? Use of the clock even from the start will make sure you don't get knocked out early especially when you are dealt a hand like AK or AA or KK for example only to get knocked out by someone playing a hand like 3 8 off suit just because the get off on knocking people out early or for whatever reason they do it. I do that from the start and if it annoys you then better for me so back off. If you don't think I can play in any other league or tourney then take a look at where I am in the Senior Division of the NAPL. As of this typing I am in 4th in that league and they do their points far different then we do in this one. Either adjust your play to how I and a lot of others play or don't and suffer. The choice is yours. PSO is far different in some aspects of tourney poker so you either adjust and move up or you don't and go down further and further and further. Have a good day and I hope for your sake that you can adjust. Oh yeah as far as sitting out you really should sit out if there are a lot of clock users at your table the reason for that is you won't end up going on tilt or pulling your hair out.
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 09:50 AM
(#15)
EA2USN's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 176
BronzeStar
The first thing you have to understand the PSO scoring system makes these tournaments unlike any other. Their is a specific point in the tournament where you achieve zero points. To consistently place in the top 300 or better it is imperative that you use the clock to your advantage, to get you to the zero point mark without risking your stack in the negative point side of the spectrum. I think it is very important to have a good idea where your zero pt mark is for each tournament. Now the higher your point total gets the the longer you need to play to get to the zero point mark. THE GOAL OF THE PSO LEAGUE SHOULD BE THE END OF THE MONTH RANKINGS! NOT THE PENNIES YOU CAN WIN FOR ITM.

Its my clock and I will wait on every hand till the very last second, If you don't like it too bad I am not gonna change. If it pisses you off so much you tilt even better for me.

If you can play till the 1st break and only get in 30 - 35 hands that means you will have about 1100 in chips assuming you only played the blinds and did not win any pots to this point. (and the blinds will be 100/200 so you are just over 6bb's and close to 50% of the field has been eliminated. Now can you look to make a move and double up your chip stack with minimal risk to negative points, you still maintain a fair amount or fold equity and your tight play should earn you some respect also when you do ship to double up. Just picking up the blinds at this point or the blinds and antes after the 1st break when the blinds raise to 125/250/25 you will be increasing your stack by 30% to 40% and allowing you to place an additional 40 to 50 places higher in the standings .

I play this way only in the PSO tournaments due to the point scoring system, and at critical stages of cash tournaments (ie close the the bubble or close to a jump in payout if already in the money).

As far as live tournaments there are no points so there is no advantage to stall each hand. Your goal there is to make the money and presumably the final table cause that is where 70% or more of the prize pool is. In these tournament you need to play fast in early stages to see as many hands as you can when the blinds are low.

Someone had mentioned cash games, it would be ridiculous to play like that in cash game because there would be no advantage to be gained by stalling each hand.

PS* as a side note I have found that stalling is also a very effective way to place in the money a high percentage of time in the FTP Rush tournaments. however you will be extremely short stacked once you reach the money, which severely limits your chances of moving up the money board. However I did place in the money 85% of the time out of 30 rush tournaments I played that way for a small ROI of 12.5%

Last edited by EA2USN; Mon Mar 28, 2011 at 01:57 PM.. Reason: addition of PS
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 11:10 AM
(#16)
EA2USN's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 176
BronzeStar
Example of stall technique:
10:00 am PSO today 3/28/2011
at 1st break played 28 hands chip stack 1220
During current Hold'em session you were dealt 28 hands and saw flop:
- 1 out of 2 times while in big blind (50%)
- 0 out of 2 times while in small blind (0%)
- 0 out of 24 times in other positions (0%)
- a total of 1 out of 28 (3%)
Pots won at showdown - 0 of 0 (0%)
Pots won without showdown - 0
starting field 930 players remaining 456 for 49% of the field so 51% has been eliminated at this point.

Now 28 hands per round is extremely low I think I avg. In the low 30's most of the time. there was two others at table running down the clock. and one player sitting out the whole tournament who Is benefiting from slow play or they would be down much more in blinds.
my total points before tournament was 1798.90 estimate my zero pt to be around 24% or 223rd for this tournament.

20 minutes after end of break 12 hands played won my bb back when small blind folded once. My stack has been halved by the blinds and hoping to get a chance at getting all in down to 386 players remaining. Next hands get oppertunity with an AT off folded to me in late position take the chance to win some chips.

PokerStars Game #59946149463: Tournament #368288554, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2011/03/28 11:20:17 ET
Table '368288554 68' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: pswimmer1 (795 in chips)
Seat 2: oobieyes (2845 in chips)
Seat 3: Azuma1 (5405 in chips)
Seat 4: ButchStL (14505 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: RatRaider (5130 in chips)
Seat 6: EA2USN (645 in chips)
Seat 7: B0bbyTheFish (9725 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 8: Kurtopia (1105 in chips)
Seat 9: joesmoe1969 (330 in chips)
pswimmer1: posts the ante 25
oobieyes: posts the ante 25
Azuma1: posts the ante 25
ButchStL: posts the ante 25
RatRaider: posts the ante 25
EA2USN: posts the ante 25
B0bbyTheFish: posts the ante 25
Kurtopia: posts the ante 25
joesmoe1969: posts the ante 25
joesmoe1969: posts small blind 150
pswimmer1: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to EA2USN [Td As]
oobieyes said, "ty"
oobieyes: folds
Azuma1: folds
ButchStL: folds
Kurtopia said, "damn...I had Q 2 for FH...lol"
RatRaider: folds
RatRaider said, "nh"
EA2USN: raises 320 to 620 and is all-in
B0bbyTheFish: folds
Kurtopia: folds
joesmoe1969: calls 155 and is all-in
pswimmer1: calls 320
*** FLOP *** [Ad Ts Th]
*** TURN *** [Ad Ts Th] [Js]
*** RIVER *** [Ad Ts Th Js] [7h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
pswimmer1: shows [5d 2d] (a pair of Tens)
EA2USN: shows [Td As] (a full house, Tens full of Aces)
EA2USN collected 630 from side pot
joesmoe1969: shows [6d Qc] (a pair of Tens)
EA2USN collected 1140 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1770 Main pot 1140. Side pot 630. | Rake 0
Board [Ad Ts Th Js 7h]
Seat 1: pswimmer1 (big blind) showed [5d 2d] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 2: oobieyes folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Azuma1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: ButchStL folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: RatRaider folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: EA2USN showed [Td As] and won (1770) with a full house, Tens full of Aces
Seat 7: B0bbyTheFish folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Kurtopia (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: joesmoe1969 (small blind) showed [6d Qc] and lost with a pair of Tens

Flopped a monster and tripled up

Last edited by EA2USN; Mon Mar 28, 2011 at 11:25 AM.. Reason: update progress
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 11:36 AM
(#17)
EA2USN's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 176
BronzeStar
35 min past 1st break 200/400/50 played 19 hands since break
blinded down to $950 in chips 262 players remain and am sitting in 234th position goal of zero mark is insight.

1hr 42 minutes into tournament 3 hands away from BB will be blinded all in at that point. Made zero mark
216 players remaining. Any two high cards now I can shove with $600 chips and pray for a win.

1hr 47 minutes into tournament all in in the BB with $645 4 8 off suit with 4 players not looking good.
Finished 192nd should be enough pts to put me above 1800 total.

During current Hold'em session you were dealt 54 hands and saw flop:
- 4 out of 5 times while in big blind (80%)
- 0 out of 5 times while in small blind (0%)
- 1 out of 44 times in other positions (2%)
- a total of 5 out of 54 (9%)
Pots won at showdown - 1 of 3 (33%)
Pots won without showdown - 1

By stalling every hand I was able to finish above my zero mark for positive points while only winning one hand for a triple up from 600 to 1800 and one BB+SB when the sb folded preflop to me. So as you can see the advantage of stalling each turn is huge.

Last edited by EA2USN; Mon Mar 28, 2011 at 11:58 AM.. Reason: update
 
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While i'm still in the top 100..hehe 92 last chk - Mon Mar 28, 2011, 10:52 PM
(#18)
cpt.quiver's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 99
BronzeStar
Yep I use ALL my time almost every time....from beg to itm,and some times even after that as long as there's multiple tbls,if i'm not getting cards,and/or am shrt stkd..I dont see any adv. to letting chp ldrs see more hands...That being said,it wouldn't bother me if the clock were shorter,maybe there's some room to improve the situation through those means..BUT MORE IMPORTANTLYe Most Significant(possibly,Only) Non mathmatical tell One has online is your action response time.....THEREFORE: Consistancy is King....The only way I can know I'm acting consistantly is to USE EVERY DAMN SECOND I GET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.........there's a few other reasons this strategy is effective,early in most low/micro/freeroll tournys,and I may elaborate on my opinions regarding these in a future reply....GL to all....Q
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 11:14 PM
(#19)
cpt.quiver's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 99
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpt.quiver View Post
Yep I use ALL my time almost every time....from beg to itm,and some times even after that as long as there's multiple tbls,if i'm not getting cards,and/or am shrt stkd..I dont see any adv. to letting chp ldrs see more hands...That being said,it wouldn't bother me if the clock were shorter,maybe there's some room to improve the situation through those means..BUT MORE IMPORTANTLYe Most Significant(possibly,Only) Non mathmatical tell One has online is your action response time.....THEREFORE: Consistancy is King....The only way I can know I'm acting consistantly is to USE EVERY DAMN SECOND I GET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.........there's a few other reasons this strategy is effective,early in most low/micro/freeroll tournys,and I may elaborate on my opinions regarding these in a future reply....GL to all....Q
For those of you who think tiem wasting is a strageic part of the tounament game. How would you feel if you were short stacked and the huge stack at the table was stalling every time the blind levels were within 30 seconds of going up? Since most players should be in puch fold mode anyway the big stack should try to make his opponents situaltion even more desperate. As an example, if I have a huge stack in the SB and the three palyers to my left do not know good tourney strategy and now have only 3 - 5 BB's each, it is perfectly ok for me to sit there and wait for the blind levels to go up thereby halving their relative stack sizes. Do you all really feel that this is proper poker?

What is this Proper Poker?????.....If there's an advantage to be taken..I'LL BE THERE....So.....YES It's Plenty Proper For me....I like it,I like it a lot.....Frustrating One's Opponents,is what poker's all about...(but,I love torturing humans,non-violently,of course)jk..in my opinion...Online there's so much less to work with.....Alas, in conclusion...for now;With So many fishies shvng,getting lucky/sharks slow playing evrythng early,I'd just as soon slow em all down and piss em all off......yep I can Be Cpt. dipsh!t,Cpt.A $ $hole..whatever....i dont worry very often about what others at a poker tbl think of my play...live or online..and i'm in vegas 2 or 3 times a yr...every yr......You aare Correct in that others might give u a hard time if you(1 specific plr)were intentionally slowing the game down,but there's rules in every game....And leveraging them to MY FAVOR is MY INTENTION AT ALL TIMES......but I'm An OLD SCHOOL GAMER!!!!!!!!
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 11:40 PM
(#20)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
quiver. I really want to read your posts, but you don't make it easy
 

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