Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions / Old Hand Analysis Section /

Is There Anything I Could Have Done Differently?

Is There Anything I Could Have Done Differently? - Wed Mar 16, 2011, 03:08 PM
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
Thoughts would be appreciated on this. The background is that the initial raiser was habitually doing this every other hand, but whenever they did show it was big cards. Similar with the flat caller.

The reason I flat called was because I had a feeling I would be put all in, and I thought it was too early in the tournament to do that with a drawing hand.

This table was one for not respecting any raises tbh, and what makes it worse is that I actually hit everything I wanted a card too late.

I think I was right to get away, but...well, your opinions please.

Last edited by tomrankin51; Thu Mar 17, 2011 at 04:31 AM..
Wed Mar 16, 2011, 04:15 PM
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
Yes, there are things you can do...

1) Iso raise pre-flop, or even shove pre-flop.

Sure, AKs is not a pair, but if this guy shows a strong propensity for large bets AND looseness, raising or even shoving for value ehre is not that bad.

His large bet from out of position, and his habit for bi flop bets means getting involved here stands a good chance of being a "committment decision" for you.

2/3rds the time you will be un-paired on the flop; do you really want to fold away 210 off your semi short stack that often?

You KNOW he is going to bet any flop hard, do you want a tough decision with a 1 pr hand (granted, it will be top/top) if the board is highly coordinated?

so an iso raise, or even iso shove works pretty well to eliminate your tough flop decisions.

2) Shove the flop over him, or FOLD.

You flopped as well as hoped with no pair; Nut flush draw, with 2 board overs.

He does bet big, and you CALL...why?

If you are facing jsut 1 pair hand, as long as that is not AA/KK, you are sitting on 9 flush outs, plus 6 over card outs. 15 outs puts you as a BIG "math favorite" over a 1 paired hand.

Even if this guy has an A3, you hold 9 flush outs on the flop, and 8 flush outs on the turn (assuming the board doesnt pair, and is a non diamond). This gives you a bit over 33% versus 3 of a kind.

'course you are basically "drawing dead" (super thin to running K's or A's) versus a boat, but...

CALLING his flop bet puts you well past any committment point. Do you put that many chips in, then FOLD if the turn is a 2 of spades? They answer in this case is "yes", because that is what you did...

...but the REAL answer shoulda been "NO WAY!"

...and that's why with this hand and this flop, you gotta go all in, or fold here.
Wed Mar 16, 2011, 04:38 PM
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Hi Tom,

Welcome! I did see you other post about a depreciating stack but found it was so much of an "it depends" answer that it was not worthwhile to just say it depends.

In this case the problem is not wanting to go out too early but there is nothing wrong with an early bath if you play the hand as best you can. I assume this is the PSO league and we all play conservatively sometimes and we all make mistakes but Poker is a learning process and we only learn by our mistakes.

Flat calling with such a premium hand was a mistake. You cannot assume that because someone was raising with big cards that they have better cards than you. You have to take notes on your opponent over a period of time before making that assumption.

You got a brilliant flop with a draw to the nut flush and you must raise and if necessary go all in. You are last to act after the button raises all inand have pot odds and a good probability of catching your diamond plus you have already invested heavily in the hand. It is a snap call.

I hope this helps and I am sure some of the better players will come up with a more rounded explanation for you.


Edit: I see one already did.
Wed Mar 16, 2011, 04:53 PM
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,812
well... I saw this hand, since I was sitting next to you.

The one person all in, was pushing every hand... the other I have marked as a pretty good player, so I would have known that they have a legit hand.

You had the nut flush draw and probably 2 over cards... which gives you 15 outs after the flop (makes you a 60% favorite). With that, if it was me, I'd have called. If I didn't get an A, K or 2 diamonds on the flop, then I'd have folded.
Wed Mar 16, 2011, 05:37 PM
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
The poker gods shed a single tear when they saw your flop call/fold.
Thu Mar 17, 2011, 04:17 AM
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
After having a think about this hand overnight, I have come to three conclusions :

a) I was actually too comfortable with the way the hand went that the all in bet threw me and I thought I was behind to a set. I figured they both had a big pair with a diamond
b) This isn't my usual way of playing. In fact I can say that the blind levels put me off. If this had been a level or two higher I would have shoved;
c) I was flush mining - bad, bad, bad given the circumstances;

Lesson learnt - that being 1) don't deviate from my usual aggression, 2) don't be frightened to go out early if the situation tells you otherwise 3) when you flop the thing you want don't be an idiot and slow play it *rolls eyes - at self*

Though, it brings up another question. Given the hands shown and the players involved, there was no way the money wasn't going in from at least two of us in this hand. So, when faced with two all in bets like this, is this really the only time you could legitimately call it? A three way pot going to the river with all the money in is something I usually try and stay away from...

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Last edited by tomrankin51; Thu Mar 17, 2011 at 04:31 AM..
Thu Mar 17, 2011, 03:37 PM
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
You KNOW he is going to bet any flop hard, do you want a tough decision with a 1 pr hand (granted, it will be top/top) if the board is highly coordinated?
I think if we flat pre, our plan is to get the money in any time we flop a pair, so there will be no tough decisions.

Given the early blind level, flat pre isn't bad, as long as the following is true:

-We will commit any time we flop a pair or better
-We will commit any time we flop a draw
-We will move on some pots with board textures that are bad for the opener (so we are not only resorting to playing fit or fold).

Failing that reraise pre is better (ship over this ridiculously large open raise).

On the flop, shove over the bet, you're a favorite against the preflop raiser's range.


Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com