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AK vs Underpair

 
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AK vs Underpair - Thu Mar 17, 2011, 02:58 PM
(#1)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
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I think I had to shove here, knowing I was going to be called by the obvious large stack (all good). Result not all good (yet again).

Can somebody explain to me without me smashing my house up with a cricket bat why underpairs come out as favourites against AK, and why do I always seem to be on the losing end of hands when it matters holding AK? Is it simply down to being a pair?

I include the hand for reference, but it really doesn't matter.

 
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Thu Mar 17, 2011, 03:12 PM
(#2)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Results from PokerStove:
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Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.969% 45.72% 00.25% 56362248 310806.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 54.031% 53.78% 00.25% 66302028 310806.00 { 44 }

Against AK an underpair is a made hand and AK has 6 outs plus miracle str8s & flushes to improve. When AK hits the underpair only has 2 outs to improve. So it works out to be so close as to be generally called a coin flip.
 
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Thu Mar 17, 2011, 03:23 PM
(#3)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
You have to understand that AK is still only a drawing hand and it has to improve to beat a pair.

All in shove at this point with AK and you are saying although you may not see it that way please don't anyone call me please. That always invites the big stack to call although I personally would not have called with a pair of fours here myself.

I am not being condescending here but I would suggest that you go through all the material and courses available on the site here one more time and then try to incorporate that into your game. The big hands don't always hold up. That is just a fact of life and you have to accept that.
 
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Thu Mar 17, 2011, 03:44 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomrankin51 View Post
Can somebody explain to me without me smashing my house up with a cricket bat why underpairs come out as favourites against AK,
Math. (See Joe's post)

Quote:
and why do I always seem to be on the losing end of hands when it matters holding AK?
You're not. It's a perception thing. It sure feels like it when you're running bad though.
 
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Thu Mar 17, 2011, 03:52 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
You have to understand that AK is still only a drawing hand.
I don't know who started this misconception but it's misguided imo.

Yes AK has to improve vs. a pocket pair. But it's not a drawing hand vs. AQ. Nor is it a drawing hand vs. JTs.

Shoving AK on a 10 bb stack over 2 limpers is super standard here and 100% correct. Even suspecting the big stack will make loose calls. Either way it doesn't matter. The big stack is limping loose. If he calls tight, he's folding a ton to our shove which is fine. If he calls loose, AK will play well against any loose calling range. Let's say he's limping with 30% for instance, and calling with 25% (which will not include premiums mostly, since he would usually open for a raise with the top hands). Vs a calling range of: TT-22,AQs-A2s,K5s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,AQo-A7o,K9o+,Q9o+,JTo We are almost a 2-1 favorite:


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.224% 34.26% 00.96% 1950231888 54587160.00 { TT-22, AQs-A2s, K5s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, Q9o+, JTo }
Hand 1: 64.776% 63.82% 00.96% 3632292288 54587160.00 { AKo }
 
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Thu Mar 17, 2011, 03:52 PM
(#6)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
BronzeStar
No I know they dont always hold up and I'm not under that delusion, I just wanted to maybe find out why underpairs perform well against AK - it's basically because it's a pair against a drawing hand as we've all said. I think you're right topthecat about it being a "please don't call me hand". I see it that way too.

Are these results the same for all underpairs down to 22? Also, playing Devil's Advocate slightly, does this mean that AK is not a hand to go all in with, because you would essentially want to go in ahead to double up rather than win the blinds? Or should you still take your chances with coin flips? And on the flip side (no pun...), is it right to go all in with any pair given that you're ahead against everything but a higher pair? It doesn't sound right to me, especially with 22, 33, 44 - 55 and up sounds like you may get away with it to showdown.

I'm constantly reading and studying and thinking about my game. I don't feel I need to go through the courses here again and again, though actually I found Barry Tanenbaums' lessons very interesting today! I think I have a very good grasp of the mechanics, even though it's still a learning experience. I'm just not sure what's happening to my game. Nothing has gone right this month. I find the advice condescending, yes, but I can appreciate it as it's a valid statement to make.

Thanks for the help so far, if only I didn't have to ask for it lol!
Tom

EDIT : Sorry I saw that posts were made while I was replying. Like I said, I'm not on the losing end per se, but it feels like I am when it matters. I certainly win pots with it, just not the good ones! And I think AK is a drawing hand, but it's a different drawing hand because it beats everything except any pair. I think it requires a different way of playing, but what that is I haven't learned yet!

Last edited by tomrankin51; Thu Mar 17, 2011 at 04:00 PM..
 
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Thu Mar 17, 2011, 04:19 PM
(#7)
DLeviathan's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 501
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You can't win every hand. Anyone who wins every hand eventually ends up in jail (because they are cheating and will be caught).

This one you seem to have played perfectly.

If you play AK perfectly every time it is dealt to you, you will still lose some hands and bust out of some tournaments in the process. I find AK to be a very difficult hand to play on a big stack and a very easy hand to play on a short stack. On a short stack you go all in with AK and feel good about it unless an opponent flips over AA or KK. The short end of the coin flip is just fine. There is usually enough dead money from antes to make it +EV even when you are in the BB heads up vs the sb.

Last edited by DLeviathan; Thu Mar 17, 2011 at 04:22 PM..
 
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Thu Mar 17, 2011, 06:46 PM
(#8)
Triggz88's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 28
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well here goes this is how i saw it i limp with this hand because i have a huge stack at this point and knew if i flopped a set i was extracting huge value, i was ready to fold to a raise dont get me wrong i was playing fairly tight but when you raised allin and i saw everyone else fold (i would have folded if anyone else had called) I put you on the exact hand you had ak or something of the like ak,aq,aj etc etc to which im a slight favourite i liked my odds because i had a stack big enough to not be affected by the outcome. on another note if i'm wrong and you have a higher pair i still have some draws albeit very little (sets straights etc etc) and you still wouldnt dent my stack too much.

i would like to point out that i would not have called this allin with any of the hands mentioned above just pocket pairs ie not JT KQ etc etc because i know this guy isnt a donk just going allin for the sake of it i knew i would be dominatred by Ax etc etc

Last edited by Triggz88; Thu Mar 17, 2011 at 06:52 PM..
 
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Thu Mar 17, 2011, 07:03 PM
(#9)
o0o0AcEo0o0's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 218
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
I don't know who started this misconception but it's misguided imo.

Yes AK has to improve vs. a pocket pair. But it's not a drawing hand vs. AQ. Nor is it a drawing hand vs. JTs.

Shoving AK on a 10 bb stack over 2 limpers is super standard here and 100% correct. Even suspecting the big stack will make loose calls. Either way it doesn't matter. The big stack is limping loose. If he calls tight, he's folding a ton to our shove which is fine. If he calls loose, AK will play well against any loose calling range. Let's say he's limping with 30% for instance, and calling with 25% (which will not include premiums mostly, since he would usually open for a raise with the top hands). Vs a calling range of: TT-22,AQs-A2s,K5s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,AQo-A7o,K9o+,Q9o+,JTo We are almost a 2-1 favorite:


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.224% 34.26% 00.96% 1950231888 54587160.00 { TT-22, AQs-A2s, K5s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, Q9o+, JTo }
Hand 1: 64.776% 63.82% 00.96% 3632292288 54587160.00 { AKo }
Very nicely put!
 
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Thu Mar 17, 2011, 07:38 PM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triggz88 View Post
well here goes this is how i saw it i limp with this hand because i have a huge stack at this point and knew if i flopped a set i was extracting huge value, i was ready to fold to a raise dont get me wrong i was playing fairly tight but when you raised allin and i saw everyone else fold (i would have folded if anyone else had called) I put you on the exact hand you had ak or something of the like ak,aq,aj etc etc to which im a slight favourite i liked my odds because i had a stack big enough to not be affected by the outcome. on another note if i'm wrong and you have a higher pair i still have some draws albeit very little (sets straights etc etc) and you still wouldnt dent my stack too much.

i would like to point out that i would not have called this allin with any of the hands mentioned above just pocket pairs ie not JT KQ etc etc because i know this guy isnt a donk just going allin for the sake of it i knew i would be dominatred by Ax etc etc
Hey Triggz nice to see you jump into the thread!

I think your call with the 44 is perfectly fine. Depending on your read if any of Drug (the first limper) you might even consider raising to isolate that weak limp.

Calling the shove by the short stack you have to call 1170 to win 1845 so you need about 39% equity with your hand to make calling mathematically correct. Given your stack size (like you say easily affordable call) you should definitely make the +EV math play here. And for your images sake (you don't want to limp/fold to this short a stack when you have so many chips, or you're inviting people to attack you), you should probably take slightly the worst of it math wise if you have to... just so people who get short know for certain they are getting called if they come over the top of you.

In this case you'll either be a small fav vs overcards or a 4-1 dog vs an overpair, but there's more overcard combos in his range. Let's say he's shoving A9o+, A8s+, KQ, and all pocket pairs (this actually gives you 2 pairs you're dominating in the mix)... I think that's a fairly reasonable range. Against that range you have almost 43%, +EV.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.929% 42.20% 00.73% 749988924 13026336.00 { 44 }
Hand 1: 57.071% 56.34% 00.73% 1001329956 13026336.00 { 22+, A8s+, KQs, A9o+, KQo }

BTW the other hands you mentioned, KQ and JT... KQ has 39%

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.925% 35.89% 03.03% 1157815356 97900062.00 { KQo }
Hand 1: 61.075% 58.04% 03.03% 1872365256 97900062.00 { 22+, A8s+, KQs, A9o+, KQo }

JT has 37%

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.996% 36.59% 00.40% 1233105168 13599126.00 { JTo }
Hand 1: 63.004% 62.60% 00.40% 2109510852 13599126.00 { 22+, A8s+, KQs, A9o+, KQo }

Although KQ is EV neutral and JT slightly -EV, you should probably call this short a stack's shove anyway for the sake of image and avoiding people running all over you with 3b shoves later. This would change if calling and losing the hand had a significant impact on your chip stack status in the tourney.

Dave
 
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Thu Mar 17, 2011, 08:39 PM
(#11)
Triggz88's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 28
BronzeStar
i understand what your saying about KQ JT etc and i would of called a shove with them aswell the only difference is if i decided to play those hands i would have raised in the first place and the shove would have ment i might aswell call the difference anyway

oh btw langolier watched your video on reading hands today, it was very informative, it was kind of annoying i couldnt see what people where typing though lol

Last edited by Triggz88; Thu Mar 17, 2011 at 08:44 PM..
 
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Fri Mar 18, 2011, 02:51 AM
(#12)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
BronzeStar
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Btw, Triggz I wasn't saying you shouldn't have played or whatever. I understand the reason why you would. I was just curious as to why even very small pocket pairs perform well against a premium hand such as AK.
 
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Fri Mar 18, 2011, 08:57 AM
(#13)
D&J257's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 29
WhiteStar
I don't know who started this misconception but it's misguided imo.

Yes AK has to improve vs. a pocket pair. But it's not a drawing hand vs. AQ. Nor is it a drawing hand vs. JTs.

Shoving AK on a 10 bb stack over 2 limpers is super standard here and 100% correct. Even suspecting the big stack will make loose calls. Either way it doesn't matter. The big stack is limping loose. If he calls tight, he's folding a ton to our shove which is fine. If he calls loose, AK will play well against any loose calling range. Let's say he's limping with 30% for instance, and calling with 25% (which will not include premiums mostly, since he would usually open for a raise with the top hands). Vs a calling range of: TT-22,AQs-A2s,K5s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,AQo-A7o,K9o+,Q9o+,JTo We are almost a 2-1 favorite:


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.224% 34.26% 00.96% 1950231888 54587160.00 { TT-22, AQs-A2s, K5s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, Q9o+, JTo }
Hand 1: 64.776% 63.82% 00.96% 3632292288 54587160.00 { AKo }

Read more: AK vs Underpair - PokerSchoolOnline Forum http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...#ixzz1GxZ7uDVy




AK is not a made or completed hand thats for sure......So there for it is a drawing hand period....Does it beat other drawing hands why sure it does..But the question at hand is AK a drawing hand ummmm YEP. Not a mith sir but a fact by definition....

Drawing Hand
1.Noun

A hand that is one or more cards away from being a straight, a flush, or a straight flush but that has the possibility of being one of these hands after future cards are dealt or revealed; as opposed to a complete hand.

Last edited by D&J257; Fri Mar 18, 2011 at 09:05 AM.. Reason: Wanted Dave's unfactual reply with this
 
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Fri Mar 18, 2011, 09:42 AM
(#14)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by D&J257 View Post
AK is not a made or completed hand thats for sure......So there for it is a drawing hand period....Does it beat other drawing hands why sure it does..But the question at hand is AK a drawing hand ummmm YEP. Not a mith sir but a fact by definition.....
Poker is a situational game, not a game of absolute hand values. There are situations where AK is best played as a made hand and other situations where it is best played as a drawing hand. There are also situations, albeit rare, where mucking AA pre-flop is the best line.

Please play AK as a drawing hand in every situation every time when you are at my table.
 
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Fri Mar 18, 2011, 11:08 AM
(#15)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by D&J257 View Post
AK is not a made or completed hand thats for sure......So there for it is a drawing hand period....Does it beat other drawing hands why sure it does..But the question at hand is AK a drawing hand ummmm YEP. Not a mith sir but a fact by definition....

Drawing Hand
1.Noun

A hand that is one or more cards away from being a straight, a flush, or a straight flush but that has the possibility of being one of these hands after future cards are dealt or revealed; as opposed to a complete hand.
You misunderstand the definition you quoted. Actually it's a pretty poorly worded definition. By the letter of this definition small pairs can never be considered drawing hands, although often they in fact are and are played correctly as such. A more flexible defintion of a drawing hand would be a hand that is currently behind but has outs to improve to the best hand. But even that's not totally accurate, as by the letter of that defintion KK would be a "drawing hand" when it happens to be up against AA preflop, but no one is playing KK like it's not the best hand pre.

Bottom line is summed up nicely in Joe's last post. Move beyond thinking in terms of rigid hand values. If you wish to think of AK as "a drawing hand" and treat it as such in 100% of situations you are of course free to do so, but it will lead to you making mistakes that, with a less rigid thought process, are easily avoidable.
 

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