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Question/Confused RE:limp&flat calling

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Question/Confused RE:limp&flat calling - Wed Mar 23, 2011, 03:18 AM
(#1)
johannfl's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 169
BronzeStar
Hey Dave,

Just finished watching your "Managing Smalll to Med stacks in MTT's." As always, good stuff.

This question is been an ongoing issue for me that I'm still trying to understand more. You have, and not just in this class, more or less said that limping or just calling is a bad idea. Better to either raise or fold. Of course your're right, but I'm having trouble grasping some of the reasoning behind that fundamental practice. For example, I seem to get that raising as opposed to calling is beneficial because ...
1) You cant win the pot outright by just calling ever
2) In many cases you don't want to a lot of players in i.e if you have a strong pair or two high cards because even though if you have the best starting hand, someone (esp. if there are like 6 or 7 players in) is likely to catch something that will beat your pair or catch a draw and then not fold etc.
3) It opens up the possibility to C-bet and bluff .

Now here's my problems...
1) When I want to see the flop cheaply like if I have a small pair or suited connectors, etc should I still raise and why? I just limp call and keep my fingers crossed.
2) Except for trying to isolate a player or re stealing , I always just call a raise. What is wrong with me?? Why else 3 bet as opposed to calling?
3) If I'm doubtful about my hand being good, shouldnt I keep the pot as small as possible until my hand improves? And even if thats correct which its probobly not, then why do more advanced players play draws so agressively?

Maybe I should stop trying to figure out why Sammy Farha is doing this or that and work on that foundation you were talking about. in your class. Also, please recommend 2 poker books for someone that's never read one.

Thanks. Johann.
 
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Wed Mar 23, 2011, 09:34 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,497
(Head Trainer)
Hi Johann,

Remember in this lesson we’re talking about medium and short stacked. When we’re playing deep stacked (most often in a cash game setting, but this occurs early in some tournament formats too) limping or flat call raises can be correct in certain spots (although sometimes an aggressive line is still better). But as we get short this is not the optimal line. Remember the law of diminishing chips… the fewer bullets we have left in the gun, the more important it becomes to use each one wisely.

Quote:
1) When I want to see the flop cheaply like if I have a small pair or suited connectors, etc should I still raise and why? I just limp call and keep my fingers crossed.
The premise behind seeing a flop cheaply with a small pair or suited connector is speculating (which is why these are often referred to as speculative hands). Speculation is a situation where you know things won’t usually pan out, but on the rarer occasions they do, you expect to get a nice return on your investment. This is fine when you’re playing a 100 bb stack. But when you’re playing a 10 bb stack, it’s not, because things will not pan out nearly often enough to compensate for all the speculations that don’t pan out (because the rare times they do, you don’t have much you can win starting with a small stack). And the cost of speculation relative to your stack size is much more significant. Flatting a 3x raise with 100 bb’s effective is only speculating 3% of your stack for a possible nice return, when it doesn’t pan out you still have 97% of your stack remaining, plenty of bullets still left in the gun. The same speculation on a 10bb stack costs you a whopping 30% of your arsenal, not a good investment for speculation. Those bullets are best saved for a spot where you can get them in with a strong hand to maximize value, or to apply maximum pressure towards fold equity.

Quote:
2) Except for trying to isolate a player or re stealing , I always just call a raise. What is wrong with me?? Why else 3 bet as opposed to calling?
Again, there’s no room to squander chips when you’re short stacked. If your hand isn’t strong enough to re-raise, it’s probably not strong enough to call the initial raise either. Yes, this means you will have to fold some hands you might normally like to play when deeper stacked. Save those bullets for when you have a solid value situation to maximize the return you can get on your strong starting hand, or to have more bullets to leverage fold equity when attacking a favorable steal situation (and again, more return when the steal fails but you suck out anyway).

Quote:
3) If I'm doubtful about my hand being good, shouldnt I keep the pot as small as possible until my hand improves? And even if thats correct which its probobly not, then why do more advanced players play draws so agressively?
I think by now the first part of this one has been answered, you can’t afford to leak chips speculating when on a short stack. And pot control (keeping the pot small) goes out the window now, as when you’re on a short stack any pot you play is already large relative to your stack size. The reason people play draws aggressively is because they are leveraging fold equity to give themselves 2 ways to win (semi-bluffing). Either their opponent folds and gives up the pot without a fight, or if called they still have outs to improve to the best hand by completing their draw.

Hope this helps.

Dave
 
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Folding Q-10 s in 1st position pre flop - Mon Mar 28, 2011, 06:03 PM
(#3)
Stinker163's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1
Hi

I am the big stack at the table 8400 w/ the blinds 25/50 early in tourney, I decide to fold Q-10 spades. Raiser to 150 and an other to 350 and two callers. I am happy now I folded. Flop comes Q 8s 9s. Should I be kicking myself?

Stinker163
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 09:28 PM
(#4)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
NO!
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 11:36 PM
(#5)
o0o0AcEo0o0's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 218
BronzeStar
No, you laid down a marginal handto a 4better with the initial raiser still in front of you to act and could potentially shove ai. depending on his stack that may not be good. Now the flop was a dream flop to you and you had a ton of outs, but somebody could have easily had you beat with like AQ or something of that nature.

However, in position and with that deep of a stack I may have called in hopes to see a cheap flop with these guys.

Last edited by o0o0AcEo0o0; Tue Mar 29, 2011 at 11:04 AM.. Reason: A marginal "hand" sorry typo in first sentence.
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 11:50 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,497
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
NO!
+1.

Don't be results oriented. You're probably folding 72o preflop too. One of these times you'll do so and the flop will come 722. That doesn't mean you should play it the next time.
 

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