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Discussion Topic: Calling All-In With A Low Pocket Pair

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Discussion Topic: Calling All-In With A Low Pocket Pair - Fri Mar 25, 2011, 06:26 AM
(#1)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Here's a discussion topic I want to address, because it's a concept in poker I don't really understand. In a medium-stacked scenario, let's say you open raise with a pocket pair and get reraised all-in by a player who also has a medium stack. When and why should you call, with only a hand like pocket sixes or pocket fours? This link shows an example to illustrate the situation I'm talking about.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=A5E51377D4

When people reraise all-in, it's usually because they have a good hand, but probably don't want to get called. It's very possible that their hand is really strong (like AA), but a lot of hands that people would do this with aren't (like AQ). My question is, when people reraise all-in, when is it correct to call with a smallish pair? I've seen a lot of people do it online and in televised events, just making the assumption that they're up against two high cards, but it seems unlikely to me that hands like pocket sixes are often beating someone's reship range, because there are also eight pocket pairs that they could be doing it with, all of which crush you. If you run into one of those, it's game over.

Here's my Pokerstove paragraph: If you're up against the tight 88+ ATs+ KTs+ QJs AQo+ range, then pocket sixes have about 38% equity. That's a marginal call if blinds and antes are high, but not a situation you probably want to get yourself into. If your opponent is making the move with a looser range, then you get close to 45% equity pretty fast, but you're almost always behind.

I'm interested to hear everyone's perspectives on this. Hopefully I can learn something new.
 
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Fri Mar 25, 2011, 08:22 AM
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DEMONTIS7's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 209
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Pretty easy thought string here,,,,
1. Don't raise w/ small pocket pairs,,they are not strong enough to warrent a raise
2. If you bet small pocket pairs,,,fold to an all in raise/reraise
3 Small pocket pairs are a drawing hand,,,,you're only hope is to hit a set,,,even a full house. But you might need all 7 cards to get er done.

I feel the best place to play small pocket pairs is late position, when you can limp in for a look see, if you don't hit a set on the flop,,,,fold

At the end of the day, small pocket pairs are just that,,,, nothing but a small pair,,,,No need to make it rocket science

No set,,,,No bet

Last edited by DEMONTIS7; Fri Mar 25, 2011 at 08:27 AM..
 
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Fri Mar 25, 2011, 08:29 AM
(#3)
JT_Sooooted's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEMONTIS7 View Post
Pretty easy thought string here,,,,
1. Don't raise w/ small pocket pairs,,they are not strong enough to warrent a raise
2. If you bet small pocket pairs,,,fold to an all in raise/reraise
3 Small pocket pairs are a drawing hand,,,,you're only hope is to hit a set,,,even a full house. But you might need all 7 cards to get er done.

I feel the best place to play small pocket pairs is late position, when you can limp in for a look see, if you don't hit a set on the flop,,,,fold

At the end of the day, small pocket pairs are just that,,,, nothing but a small pair,,,,No need to make it rocket science

No set,,,,No bet
PERFECT..............why not limp/fold to raise?

Great reply!

JT
 
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Fri Mar 25, 2011, 09:28 AM
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Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
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I'm also thinking situations can dictate when to do this.

If you are late in the tourney and are low to middle ranked, you need an opportunity to double. As I understand it, when you are in a head-to-head situation, the pocket pair is considered a stronger hand. Of course, the higher the pocket pair, the better. I wouldn't be keen on 6's unless it is a do-or-die situation. You want something higher than the 8, since that is dead center.

When your single opponent has one card higher, you are approximately an 8-point favorite. When your single opponent has two cards higher, you are still favored, but only by 4 points. Obviously, if both have pocket pairs, the higher one has a twenty point lead.

With that being the known, if it is late in a game and I catch a pocket pair, I might push all-in hoping for that one-on-one situation. Should a second player join, I know I'm screwed. However, it has doubled me up many times and I'll get to last another one or two full orbits before being forced to play less than a playable hand. That means a higher finish, and a chance at making it further if another good hand comes along.
 
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Fri Mar 25, 2011, 09:42 AM
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kidpoker525's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 14
Generally if I don't put someone on a pocket pair, I'm more than happy to get all my chips in the middle with them pre-flop. It's like a 53%/47% coin flip in your favor, and unless the flop gives them flush or straight outs you're dodging 8 cards. It's not a move I like to make online, because I get a lot less information to put them on any given hand.

Some things that I look for online when considering making these sort of calls:
- Opponents chip stack; if a call or re-raise would cost him 25%-30% of his stack, it's quite normal for people to simply go all-in
- Previous plays; How tight/loose has he been playing, have you seen him/her make a similar play against another player or yourself at any other point
- How many people are going to have the option of calling behind you? With any pocket pair you want as few opponents as possible, since it's very likely that each of them has different overcards to your pocket pair, giving you a very large range of cards to dodge

Just my thoughts, hope it helps
 
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?? - Fri Mar 25, 2011, 11:03 AM
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monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
1. Don't raise w/ small pocket pairs,,they are not strong enough to warrent a raise

Read more: Discussion Topic: Calling All-In With A Low Pocket Pair - PokerSchoolOnline Forum http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...#ixzz1HcwG5DVP

I cannot DISAGREE - with this statement more than i could agree that the sky is blue--

1.-LP- raises- if folded to you - warrant a raise with ANY pp- why- you give yourself more than 1 way to win the pot- 1. - if the blinds fold- 2. if they flat and you flop a set-- huge pot - or flop is dry like- paired broadway cards and 1 card under your pair-- 3. they flat you - slo playin a bigger PP-- and an ace flops-- as you were the aggressor , pre flop- u can represent the ace and get a fold out of a tight player-- of couse - this is all stack size and situation dependent--

My point being here- is that i am seeing more and more posts- related to what i call -- card dependent poker-- and thats not poker- thats playing cards-- without taking advantage of position - i feel much value is lost-- as always-- just my opinion and gl to all--

As per the OP ?-- rarely will i call a shuv- with a small PP- less i have the villain outstacked- am last to act- heads up-- and pot odds warrant the call-- monk.....

Last edited by monkeyskunk4; Fri Mar 25, 2011 at 11:15 AM.. Reason: cant type
 
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?? - Fri Mar 25, 2011, 03:29 PM
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monkeyskunk4's Avatar
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bump--
 
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Fri Mar 25, 2011, 03:40 PM
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teepack's Avatar
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One of the things that I have learned is to trust small pocket pairs, but only if you can get into a 1-on-1 situation and you are relatively sure the other person is betting an Ace (or something like a KQ suited, etc.). That small pocket pair will hold up more often than not.

I also agree that it depends on what the situation is. If you are late in an MTT and your stack is on the small side (say 20 percent or so of the average chip count), it's not a bad idea to push all-in and hope you can get into one of the aforementioned 1-on-1 scenarios. That should at least give you the chance to more than double up if you can get a caller.

If it is early in an MTT and you are in an early position with a decent size stack, I would try to limp into the pot and see if I can hit a set, and then get the heck out of dodge as soon as the betting starts. Depending on what hte blinds are, I might even call a small raise, but I would not risk more than 10 percent of my stack to see the flop.

Otherwise, just give them up and wait for the next hand.
 
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Fri Mar 25, 2011, 03:51 PM
(#9)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyskunk4 View Post
1. Don't raise w/ small pocket pairs,,they are not strong enough to warrent a raise

Read more: Discussion Topic: Calling All-In With A Low Pocket Pair - PokerSchoolOnline Forum http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...#ixzz1HcwG5DVP

I cannot DISAGREE - with this statement more than i could agree that the sky is blue--

1.-LP- raises- if folded to you - warrant a raise with ANY pp- why- you give yourself more than 1 way to win the pot- 1. - if the blinds fold- 2. if they flat and you flop a set-- huge pot - or flop is dry like- paired broadway cards and 1 card under your pair-- 3. they flat you - slo playin a bigger PP-- and an ace flops-- as you were the aggressor , pre flop- u can represent the ace and get a fold out of a tight player-- of couse - this is all stack size and situation dependent--

My point being here- is that i am seeing more and more posts- related to what i call -- card dependent poker-- and thats not poker- thats playing cards-- without taking advantage of position - i feel much value is lost-- as always-- just my opinion and gl to all--

As per the OP ?-- rarely will i call a shuv- with a small PP- less i have the villain outstacked- am last to act- heads up-- and pot odds warrant the call-- monk.....
+2

If I'm short-stacked and in late position with ANY pocket pair and it's been folded around to me my chips are in the middle. Short stacked and early/mid-position may be more situation dependent(stacks to act after,how the players holding those stacks play,etc....).If it's early/mid-game in a tourney and I have chips then I'm coming in for a raise. Monk's dead on here,it gives me a way to take the pot down WITHOUT hitting my set on the flop. Now if it's been opened with limps,then yeah,I'll set-mine on the cheap if I can. If there's a LAG/LAP type in one of the blinds that is'nt going to come off the hand to a pre-flop raise then my hand is bascially going to be flop-dependent anyway,so I would probably limp instead. But to say that your descision process should be based solely on your holdings is'nt playing poker,monk's dead on about that. It's what I call being PSO'ified. It may make sense here,but not elsewhere.

Oh and kidpoker,you're right about any small pair being in a flip situation with any 2 overcard hands pre-flop,but if there is'nt a flush/straight board in play you're dodging SIX cards,not EIGHT (they already hold 2 of them...................).

And there are times in this game when you have to be willing to play all your chips on a flip,just as simple as that.

As to panicky's query here,that's VERY situation dependent. Have a player who has been playing pretty tight raise me enough for me to be all-in (especially from early position) then I would have to be in very desperate straits to call. A LAG/Maniac type then I feel my chances of being up against a drawing hand and not an overpair increase,and therefore so does the chances of my calling.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Fri Mar 25, 2011 at 03:58 PM..
 
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Fri Mar 25, 2011, 07:01 PM
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DEMONTIS7's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 209
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[QUOTE=PanickyPoker;265979] In a medium-stacked scenario, let's say you open raise with a pocket pair and get reraised all-in by a player who also has a medium stack. When and why should you call, with only a hand like pocket sixes or pocket fours?(QUOTE]

you all need to stick to the senerio that Panicky sets up. This is exactly how a thread get so out of control that the original question gets lost in a sea of retoric.

Cairn,,,,makes it a heads up situation

Monkey,,,,wants to bluff, represent an A. or call that raise because the pot odds are right,,,,imo pot odds be damned. It's like throwin good money after bad, all in the name of pot odds. Screw that. If you want to bluff or bet on a losin horse, go right ahead. As far as playing cards instead of poker, thats all you got are 2 cards. if you pick the right 2 cards to begin with, you don't have to depend on bluffs or pot odds.

teepack,,,,good call

Moxie...if playing small pocket pairs w/ caution and care is what you call PSO'ified, i'll take that as a compliment.

IMO, I'll play according to my holdings (card dependent) and position. At the end of the day. a small pair is exactly what it is,,,a small pairl
Now if anyone was graced enough to be at the same table w/ me, you'd soon see that I bring many pleasents to the table, I rarely bluff, and I never cheat,,,,>Dem
 
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??????? - Fri Mar 25, 2011, 07:14 PM
(#11)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
[QUOTE=DEMONTIS7;266156]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
In a medium-stacked scenario, let's say you open raise with a pocket pair and get reraised all-in by a player who also has a medium stack. When and why should you call, with only a hand like pocket sixes or pocket fours?(QUOTE]

you all need to stick to the senerio that Panicky sets up. This is exactly how a thread get so out of control that the original question gets lost in a sea of retoric.

Cairn,,,,makes it a heads up situation

Monkey,,,,wants to bluff, represent an A. or call that raise because the pot odds are right,,,,imo pot odds be damned. It's like throwin good money after bad, all in the name of pot odds. Screw that. If you want to bluff or bet on a losin horse, go right ahead. As far as playing cards instead of poker, thats all you got are 2 cards. if you pick the right 2 cards to begin with, you don't have to depend on bluffs or pot odds.

teepack,,,,good call

Moxie...if playing small pocket pairs w/ caution and care is what you call PSO'ified, i'll take that as a compliment.

IMO, I'll play according to my holdings (card dependent) and position. At the end of the day. a small pair is exactly what it is,,,a small pairl
Now if anyone was graced enough to be at the same table w/ me, you'd soon see that I bring many pleasents to the table, I rarely bluff, and I never cheat,,,,>Dem
I will be happy to sit at your table-- you play cards-- I strive to play poker- be what you are- and do what you do--if you are folding PPs in LP-- well-- you are silly--- ciao-- and gl-- ,monk
 
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Fri Mar 25, 2011, 07:31 PM
(#12)
DEMONTIS7's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
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no reason to call me silly,,that wasn't very nice
We should all respect each other, and not go thinking that your opinion is the only one that counts
 
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??? - Sat Mar 26, 2011, 12:02 AM
(#13)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
-- i said silly- as i was being nice- what should i have said-- i agree with folding pocket pairs every time-- as you clearly advocate- i was merely pointing out the flaw in your logic- that being- to discount any hand - that you are dealt 13% of the time- BECAUSE its a small pair----- my apologies---- gl-- monk....
 
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Sat Mar 26, 2011, 12:12 AM
(#14)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Well, I guess I'm alone in this, but I almost always raise into an unopened pot with any pocket pair, from any position. I think folding small pocket pairs if nobody has entered the pot is usually a mistake. If you value sixes below AK, then that's probably a fallacy.
 
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??? - Sat Mar 26, 2011, 12:19 AM
(#15)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Well, I guess I'm alone in this, but I almost always raise into an unopened pot with any pocket pair, from any position. I think folding small pocket pairs if nobody has entered the pot is usually a mistake. If you value sixes below AK, then that's probably a fallacy.

Hey man- did you not read my response-- we paddling the same canoe-- also-- your contribution to this forum is greatly appreciated by me - anyway- see post # 6- to put ?? out there and take feedback w/o- fear of anything-- well you a good man--- monk............ and the moxiness also chimed in with valid comments- so did some others-- so why do you feel alone?---

Last edited by monkeyskunk4; Sat Mar 26, 2011 at 12:22 AM.. Reason: panicky feels alone---
 
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Sat Mar 26, 2011, 12:27 AM
(#16)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I might have read your post and forgot about it. Was a few hours ago I actually read the first page of this thread. I'll go back and review what everyone said.
 
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Sat Mar 26, 2011, 07:21 AM
(#17)
DEMONTIS7's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyskunk4 View Post
-- i said silly- as i was being nice- what should i have said-- i agree with folding pocket pairs every time-- as you clearly advocate- i was merely pointing out the flaw in your logic- that being- to discount any hand - that you are dealt 13% of the time- BECAUSE its a small pair----- my apologies---- gl-- monk....
lol,,,,Love ya
 

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