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Storm hand I busted with.

 
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Storm hand I busted with. - Sun Mar 27, 2011, 07:32 PM
(#1)
o0o0AcEo0o0's Avatar
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This is the hand I went broke with. Looking for some insight.

 
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Sun Mar 27, 2011, 08:06 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
First off, I think you will rarely survive this situation. Often, you should be getting it all-in preflop here, and most of the rest of the time you'll be getting it in on the flop with top/top. It doesn't look like the kind of hand you'll get away from very often.

Second, I want to read whatever books that villain's reading. I have no idea how they could have gathered that kind of chiplead if they habitually minraise/slowplay their monster hands, but good for them for getting the chips.

Third, in the preflop betting round, you flat called with a strong hand... out of position... in a multi-way pot. There are three things wrong with that sentence. With arguably the worst hand in the monster category, you almost certainly should have raised 100% of the time there.

On the flop, you decided to slowplay with top/top. I remember reading in Harrington on Hold'em that you should generally play anything weaker than top two pair aggressively. In other words, if it's weaker than top two pair, don't slowplay. That's not really a universal rule to always abide by, but I find myself following it often in tournaments.

That's all I got. Hope it helps.
 
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Sun Mar 27, 2011, 08:23 PM
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DEMONTIS7's Avatar
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Here's the one I busted with,,,I don't think I screwed up,,,I just get screwed....
Question: Can one ever avoid getting screwed?
 
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Sun Mar 27, 2011, 08:26 PM
(#4)
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Hey thanks for the input bro and I totally agree with everything you are saying. However, here is my thinking process.

UTG limped, horrible player, not worried about him at all. I am holding AK in a horrible spot for my hand. Anyway, this guy MIN raises! WOW the only thing I can put him on is something like 78s or exactly what he is holding KK QQ or something of that nature. I seem to fall for this situation every time, they min raise ep with Monsters and I flop a hand, get it all in, and then scratch my head wondering what I did wrong.

So honestly, I was not slow playing the flop. If I thought I had the best hand I would have check raised or just lead out on the flop since it was a scary texture. But after the flop came he lead out with another weak sort of "please call me" bet. I was very confused at this point because it was hard to lay down tptk here.

I feared QQ or 99 on the flop, but then I kind of talked myself into believing that he had a hand like AJ or possibly even AK, but I was scared of the AQ too.

I think I played every street okay here besides the river. I made trips and for some reason when he made a 2/3 pot bet I SHOVED!! I still had some fear that he filled up, but not near as much as him having a set when the flop came. I should have just called, lost the pot, and still had a decent amount of chips to continue to fight with.
 
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Sun Mar 27, 2011, 08:28 PM
(#5)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEMONTIS7 View Post


Here's the one I busted with,,,I don't think I screwed up,,,I just get screwed....
Question: Can one ever avoid getting screwed?
Yea that is tough, but you played it correctly just was unfortunate. That was a horrible shove by the UTG player. I take it he was probably one of the horrible atc playing donks at your table.
 
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Sun Mar 27, 2011, 08:44 PM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Here's the only big problem I have with your play, AcE. You decided preflop that the guy would have either a weak hand or a really strong hand. You might as well say that he could have any two cards. You're not actually ranging him, you're just giving yourself an excuse to play the hand passively.

You say you have no problem with calling down the hand because you thought that he might be strong and begging to be called. If you thought you were behind, you should have folded. If you thought that top/top was good, you should have played the hand aggressively. In the end, you decided to play the hand, but your ambivalence kept you from playing in a way that:

1) could have folded out some hands that might have outdrawn you, that

2) kept you from getting any real info about your opponent's hand before your all-in was called, and that

3) kept the pot small so that your opponent could have chosen to fold to your river bet if they were on a draw that didn't get there.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Sun Mar 27, 2011 at 08:47 PM..
 
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Sun Mar 27, 2011, 08:55 PM
(#7)
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Hey Panicky when I look at it like that man you really gave me some insight on my thinking. And you're 1000% right, I should have jacked it up about 4x his bet on the flop to see what his next move would be. If he shoves or even just re-raises I can then re-analyze my hand and figure out where I am. Even if he just smooth calls me, I can check/fold turn card if I feel like he is slow rolling a monster. I usually would power bet/3bet this hand, but I just had this overwhelmingly feeling that he had me beat.
 
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Sun Mar 27, 2011, 09:04 PM
(#8)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Yeah, I know that feeling. It's as if you look down at top/top, look up, and the other guy says, "You have AK? I have QQ. You're going to lose all your chips this hand. Hehehehehe." But you know that QQ is such a small part of their range, and they could be leveling you. I hate that feeling.

I think you get what I'm trying to say. A raise somewhere before the river might have saved you if you somehow caught wind that your opponent wasn't letting go of their hand. Maybe not, because you can't go folding top/top all that often. But if you get thrown off by your opponent's weird plays, you often end up tripping over yourself and you find yourself without chips.
 
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Sun Mar 27, 2011, 09:21 PM
(#9)
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Yea, that is exactly what I did lol. Tripped over myself and donked off my chips. But yea I get what you are saying about his ranging. I have never really learned how to range my opponents, I go more on "feel" and I want to learn to not do that anymore. Just gonna take some practice, but this is where I start and this is why I posted that hand lol. Thanks Panicky for your insight, however, I wish a few more people would have dipped in on this, but I think I got what I needed from you bro.
 
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Sun Mar 27, 2011, 09:39 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Some other people might still drop by. This forum doesn't get as much attention as I'd like. It's been getting a lot of new threads lately though. That's good.

Anyone else have an opinion? Thread still officially open.
 
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Sun Mar 27, 2011, 10:47 PM
(#11)
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Haha yea I feel the same way. I would like to see more people involved in these discussions, because I feel that I learn a lot when other people looking from "out side the box" can critique my game and vice versa.
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 01:27 PM
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darkwolves's Avatar
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Personally, I think I would have 3bet the AK preflop. You had a person you knew to be weak limping, and then a fishy min raise. A 3bet should get rid of the limper and leave you heads up. If he 4 bets, you can fold because the min raise 4 bet means he has a monster. At least, I believe that is how I would have played it.
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 01:38 PM
(#13)
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I agree darkwolves. And actually, I remember typing the amount I was going to 3bet, but then talked myself out of it and just hit the smooth call button. I remember being worried that if I made a pretty large 3bet if he smooth called me, I would be out of position on every street thereafter.

I don't think I would have been able to get away from that hand after I flopped TPTK if i c/r him and he 3bet me all in or something. I dunno lol, was very confused by this hand and that is why I decided to post it here to get some feedback. But you both pretty much said it. I should have 3betted him to isolate and see where I am at in that hand. ScAred MoNey lose money lol!

I guess this is pretty standard on what I should have done, but I have lost all my chips in similar spots like that where I was absolutely confused on what I should do because I knew I had a huge hand, but feared that my opponent had me at second best.

Thanks a ton for the feed back guys, and I will take your advice into consideration next time I get caught in a spot like this.

Just one question though ... do you guys think you would have been able to get away from this hand? Would it have been easy to? Or was me going bust here not so bad?
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 01:40 PM
(#14)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
If you thought that top/top was good, you should have played the hand aggressively.
Not necessarily. The pot is still small relative to the stacks, not sure we want to play for stacks here or will get stack action from much worse starting the hand deep (73bb's). If we take a pot control line we get our hand to showdown against a lot of weaker made hands and bluffs, which we think there will be a fair amount in the villains range. If he's polarized (suited connector type stuff or really big hands) then raising gets us all in when we're crushed and folds him out (giving us no value) when he's whiffed.

I don't mind the play preflop at all, 73 bb's vs. a min raise, it's fine in the interest of keeping the pot small to see the flop cheap and only continue when we improve. I don't really like building a big pot out of position with AK.

Flop line is fine for pot control and to extract value from weak made hands and bluffs.

Turn is fine in that same vein.

River I don't like at all. What worse hands are calling your c/r shove? I think we're only getting called here when we're beat, and folding out any bluffs he has. Unless he has specifically A-rag, we're mostly just value owning ourselves with the ship. As played I would check/call again on the river. Let him bluff more chips, but don't get stacked when he's got us.
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 02:44 PM
(#15)
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Thanks Lang, I think you hit it dead on bro. I was not wanting to build a huge pot oop here. And on the flop I just wanted to keep it small. However, you are correct about my river play. I thought about that after the shove. I scratched my head and said why did I do that?

I was like damnit! I should have just called and lost minimum. Would still have had a stack to work with and could have FT'd that tourney. Sucked to cause I was looking forward to playing it for like 3 weeks and went busto shortly after first break lol.

Thanks Lang, and the rest of you for your insight! It helped a lot.
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 02:45 PM
(#16)
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BTW Lang, I noticed you said that "line" was okay. I kind of have an understanding of what you are saying and have heard this mentioned before, but I just don't know much about it. Probably something simple, but was wondering where I might be able to learn one what it is?
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 04:21 PM
(#17)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
A line is the approach you take in playing a hand (as I understand and use the term). You can have an aggressive line, a passive line, or no line if you fold early I suppose.
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 04:23 PM
(#18)
o0o0AcEo0o0's Avatar
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Ahhh, I figured it was something simple. Thx Panicky.
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 04:24 PM
(#19)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
The phrase "that line" refers to a course of action. In the case of the flop, check/calling to get value from cbets with air and weaker made hands, while controlling the size of the pot. There are many different "lines" you can take on the flop (different courses of action). Does that help?
 
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Mon Mar 28, 2011, 04:26 PM
(#20)
o0o0AcEo0o0's Avatar
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Posts: 218
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Yea, thx bro. That helps a ton!
 

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