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Great Result But Feel The Hand Was Not Well Played

 
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Great Result But Feel The Hand Was Not Well Played - Tue Mar 29, 2011, 09:11 PM
(#1)
JesusFan_123's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 16


Though I got an excellent result, I feel I should have isolated the raiser preflop. 67o should not have been allowed to stay in the hand. Let me know what you think.

Regards

JesusFan_123
 
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Tue Mar 29, 2011, 09:43 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I think you played the hand excellently. I disagree that you should have reraised preflop with T8s, because it's not a strong enough hand to isolate. It's a drawing hand, and you could reraise with it, but I think that would essentially be a bluff. There's nothing wrong with playing drawing hands passively, so long as you don't make horrible calls. If they're not made hands, then you're bluffing, and if they do become monsters, having lots of people in the pot to extract money from is a good thing.
 
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Tue Mar 29, 2011, 09:46 PM
(#3)
DEMONTIS7's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 209
BronzeStar
I don't think you could have played that any better,,,
1. 8 10s is a speculative hand,,,so see the flop on the cheap
2. 8 10s is a drawing hand,,,,you want a multi-way pot
You lucked out as you drew a full house,,,good for you
If you had not have hit your hand on the flop, it's easy to fold,,,,take a little loss

By the way,,,What would Jesus think about our playing poker?....just a thought
I am a disciple of the Lord,,,so I think I know the answer to that one,,,,REPENT
>Dem
 
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Wed Mar 30, 2011, 08:49 AM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
JesusFan...

I'll be honest with you: without more info it is very hard to assess whether you played this very well, or very poorly.

Can you answer these questions?

1) What was your pre-flop table dynamic like?

If it tended to be one with no real "threat" of 3 bets happening, then calling in for 2 of your 29BB to speculate is not really terrible. If there was a lot of "attacking" of min bets like this one ahead of you, even the button is no guarentee 2BB is all you'll have to pay to see the flop.

2) What was your post-flop table dynamic like?

My guess is that you have a reasonable shot at getting a halfway decent price to play a draw (if you flop one), simply because there are not yet any very "short" stacks- evenyone appears to be above 25BB. But if this is NOT the case, if there someone in the hand (or with the possibility of entering) who has shown a propensity for "strong" C-bets, your spec hand loses a lot of value.

These 2 items are improtant to know because of the multi-way nature of the pot, and the high likelihood of it going multi-way as a result of the min raise...

Next...

3) How much info do you have on the initial raiser?

Can you describe his typical min raise "range"? What about his post flop C-Bet tendencies?

Again, to derive "high card" value from this hand, you have to be able to effective "range" the initial raiser at LEAST to the point of knowing "he will only min raise big pp, and big face cards", or "he will min raise just aobut anything in the top x% of hands with his stack". Knowing this let's you guage the "value" of your top pair "hit.

Knowing his C-Bet tendencies, how strong or weakly he continues, allows you to guage how likely you are to get a good price if you do flop a draw.

You really want to know a bit about this BEFORE you venture into this pot in the first place...

4) What is the range for the big blind to FLAT the min raise multi-way, then fire this hard on this flop?

We are now into the actual action on the flop, after you have flopped top pair/weak kicker, and a non-nut flush draw.

The Big Blind fires 3/4ths the pot in on this flop; what is your range read on him? That 300 bet puts another 6 BB of your stack into the pot, and pushes you dangerously close to a committment point; is there any way you CALL him then fold away a total of 28% of your stack "comfortably" on the turn?

I have to honestly say that I think you ran into a situation with a speculative hand that puts you in a ticklish situation:

He could easily have a better flush draw (2 overs to the board), and be a math favorite to you with his 15 outs (actually 13, since you hold 2 spades).

He could easily hold a set, and have negated 1 or your outs (which will boat him) on the flop, and another on the turn, leaving you drawing to a 32.3% chance.

And on and on...

So...

The fact you do not give the essential info on questions like these means it is VERY hard to judge whether you played this well, or poorly.

You are probably semi-early in an MTT, so tbh I "feel" you may well have flopped hard enough here to launch over the top of the BB's bet. Your flush draw plus top pair gives you quite a bit of "protection" versus a really big "hit" on this flop by the BB, either putting you AHEAD of a better flush draw now, or having outs against a better "made" hand. If you bust early by being aggressive, so be it. If you win though, you get a critical chip up that might let you run deep.

I'm not saying you "must" shove, but you simply cannot re-raise to "define" your hand here since your stack isn't deep enough. Yo played a spec hand, you hit your draw and top pair, so if you are NOT willing to play a strong flop hit like this on this depth of money, you probably shouldn't have entered at all...ya know?

So if I had to make a stand without the info, I would put my order of preference for actions by you at:

#1: fold pre-flop.
30 BB versus a min raiser doesn't give enough room to play a speculative hand very well post flop in any but the most PASSIVE post flop tables.

(#2 and #3 are VERY close in my mind tbh)

#2: call pre-flop, ship on the flop over the 3/4ths pot bettor and the caller.
You have a flush draw if he holds 2 pr, a set, or top pair/better kicker.
You hold top pair if he has a better flush draw.
A ship here may well "squeeze" at least 1 person out, leaving the "dead money", but the flop bet AND the call makes this highly dangerous.
You'd have to have a reasonable chance the BB would try to "stop and go" something like this pretty lite at least some of the time, and that the initial raiser would call a 3/4ths pot bet at least someof the time of a hand you can beat.
risky move, but the chance of doubling, or more even, may be worth it.

#3: call pre-flop, FOLD on the flop.
Sure, you hit this about as hard as you could have wanted too when you decided to enter pre-flop, but you are now faced with a VERY strong bet by the BB, AND a call by the intial raiser. Your T8 is probably no good as a made hand here, and your flush draw may not even be enough if you hit it.

#4: call pre-flop, call on the flop to see the turn.
This one is ick to me really. How good do you feel about your hand if a non-spade over card to the T comes on the turn?
Well, you 2 calls have now got you into the pot for just under 30% of your stack; how good do you feel about folding away that amount?
this is why I favor #2 or #3, either way you have AVOIDED a very tricky decision.

So...

The QUALITY of your decision is often a function of your ability to use the INFORMATION you potentially have to arrive at a weighted chance of each of the situational elements of a hand being present.

Sometimes your "range" of possibilities tells you a decision is a clear cut call/shove but the villain wakes up at the "top end" of your range of possibilities, and you are crushed; that does NOT mean your decision was "bad". It just means that of all the hands he MIGHT play like he did, he had the absolute BEST one for him, and the worst one for you.

Sometimes you call/shove, and he is at the bottom end of the range of possibilities, and you are a FAR bigger favorite than you actually thought...and you rake the pot.

In the grand scheme of things, this means the important thing is not the RESULT of the hand, but the quality of your decision. And oftentimes that decision is good or bad only as a result of the amount of information you considered to arrive at your choice.

See?

Last edited by JDean; Wed Mar 30, 2011 at 09:15 AM..
 
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Wed Mar 30, 2011, 08:52 AM
(#5)
DEMONTIS7's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 209
BronzeStar
Holy crap,,,,JDean,,,that was way too much info,,,
Do you time out alot?
>Dem
 
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Wed Mar 30, 2011, 09:07 AM
(#6)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Great analysis as usual JD but am I the only one thinking that JesusFan may be taking the mick?
 
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Wed Mar 30, 2011, 01:44 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Preflop fold > call, 29 bb's, we're not deep enough to be flatting raises (even min raises) with T8s. 3b bluff might be ok depending on villain reads, but as JD said you didn't consider that info.

On the flop, given there's already 1K in the middle and you only have 1300 left this is a shove with top pair+FD imo. You have fold equity, may have the best hand right now, and are subsidized by the fact that your hand equity is very good vs. many holdings that will get it in with you. Calling the flop is bad, you'll have a pot sized bet yet and will be lost on a lot of turn cards.

So I agree with your thread title. And nice post JD.

Dave
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 07:56 PM
(#8)
JesusFan_123's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 16
Thanks Paniky! After going over it again, I have to agree with you.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 08:01 PM
(#9)
JesusFan_123's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 16
Thanks for the analysis. I think it's alright to play as long you don't go overboard and lose your life savings doing it. There are may Christians who play. The 2007 WSOP champ Jerry Yang is a strong Christian. By the way, there are quite a few references to lottery in the Bible.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 08:10 PM
(#10)
JesusFan_123's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 16
Thanks TheLangolier for your analysis. I agree I should have shoved with top pair and FD.
 

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