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Thinking through a hand

 
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Thinking through a hand - Wed Mar 30, 2011, 03:51 AM
(#1)
Deleted user
I have two hands in this post,one to show my thinking for the hand I went out on and of course the out hand.

So first thing I will give you a read on the table.
I have history with one player and thats Soupie he is a decent player and I knew he would fold to a 2bet preflop so I flatted hoping he would cbet the flop,which is rare but I guy can dream.
Villain calls behind and I only have 11 hands on him and he has played aggressively post flop and I have only seen one hand go to showdown,which helped me out.
Here is the hand I saw before the out hand.


*********** # 10 **************
PokerStars Game #60043505023: Tournament #414010123, $30+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2011/03/30 0:11:32 PT [2011/03/30 3:11:32 ET]
Table '414010123 24' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: DoePopoe (6270 in chips)
Seat 2: ALLINBREAKER (4380 in chips)
Seat 3: _BARRCUDA_ (4487 in chips)
Seat 4: soupie (4800 in chips)
Seat 5: dontgetgot (7813 in chips)
Seat 6: daffywon (6983 in chips)
Seat 7: brookey808 (4565 in chips)
Seat 8: allintreats (11068 in chips)
Seat 9: IseeCookies (6070 in chips)
DoePopoe: posts small blind 75
ALLINBREAKER: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IseeCookies [3d 5h]
_BARRCUDA_ has timed out
_BARRCUDA_: folds
_BARRCUDA_ is sitting out
soupie: folds
dontgetgot: folds
daffywon: folds
brookey808: folds
_BARRCUDA_ has returned
allintreats: raises 255 to 405
IseeCookies: folds
DoePopoe: folds
ALLINBREAKER: raises 255 to 660
allintreats: calls 255
*** FLOP *** [9c 2s 8h]
ALLINBREAKER: bets 320
allintreats: raises 10088 to 10408 and is all-in
ALLINBREAKER: calls 3400 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (6688) returned to allintreats
*** TURN *** [9c 2s 8h] [6h]
*** RIVER *** [9c 2s 8h 6h] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ALLINBREAKER: shows [8d 8s] (three of a kind, Eights)
allintreats: shows [9d As] (a pair of Nines)
ALLINBREAKER collected 8835 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8835 | Rake 0
Board [9c 2s 8h 6h Th]
Seat 1: DoePopoe (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: ALLINBREAKER (big blind) showed [8d 8s] and won (8835) with three of a kind, Eights
Seat 3: _BARRCUDA_ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: soupie folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: dontgetgot folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: daffywon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: brookey808 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: allintreats showed [9d As] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 9: IseeCookies (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)


So you can see how he plays trips in this hand and how he bets less to induce a bad play from his opponent.


Now the out hand.


*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #60043674872: Tournament #414010123, $30+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2011/03/30 0:21:05 PT [2011/03/30 3:21:05 ET]
Table '414010123 24' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: DoePopoe (5295 in chips)
Seat 2: ALLINBREAKER (8985 in chips)
Seat 3: _BARRCUDA_ (4862 in chips)
Seat 4: soupie (4725 in chips)
Seat 5: dontgetgot (7888 in chips)
Seat 6: daffywon (7733 in chips)
Seat 7: brookey808 (4640 in chips)
Seat 8: allintreats (6913 in chips)
Seat 9: IseeCookies (5395 in chips)
DoePopoe: posts small blind 75
ALLINBREAKER: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IseeCookies [As Ah]
_BARRCUDA_: folds
soupie: raises 225 to 375
dontgetgot: folds
daffywon: folds
brookey808: folds
allintreats: folds
IseeCookies: calls 375
DoePopoe: folds
ALLINBREAKER: calls 225
*** FLOP *** [3s 2d Qs]
ALLINBREAKER: checks
soupie: checks
IseeCookies: bets 720
ALLINBREAKER: raises 7890 to 8610 and is all-in
soupie: folds
IseeCookies: calls 4300 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (3590) returned to ALLINBREAKER
*** TURN *** [3s 2d Qs] [Js]
*** RIVER *** [3s 2d Qs Js] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ALLINBREAKER: shows [8s Ks] (a flush, King high)
IseeCookies: shows [As Ah] (a pair of Aces)
ALLINBREAKER collected 11240 from pot
IseeCookies finished the tournament in 208th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11240 | Rake 0
Board [3s 2d Qs Js 5c]
Seat 1: DoePopoe (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: ALLINBREAKER (big blind) showed [8s Ks] and won (11240) with a flush, King high
Seat 3: _BARRCUDA_ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: soupie folded on the Flop
Seat 5: dontgetgot folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: daffywon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: brookey808 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: allintreats folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: IseeCookies (button) showed [As Ah] and lost with a pair of Aces


So I have his range pretty narrow preflop since he doesnt do this with trips and QQ would be a raise preflop most of the time.I put him his range on exactly AQ or a flush draw.
Because I held the Ace I felt that it was more likely AQ or KQ and if it was a flush draw we could race.
Sure enough he got it in with K8s and we where off to the races.So if I would have won this pot I would have been in the top 3 with just over 200 players left and top 63 getting paid.

Now the question is this:
Knowing how close I am to cashing (sitting about 44th) do I fold this on the flop?
I have found in the past that you cant take every +EV spot and win a tourney,it just doesnt happen.
So Im left thinking in reflection that I still call but would like some thoughts.

Yes I could have raised preflop and taken it down but was thinking I would be HU with Soupie and he would sniff out a funny line pretty quick.
Oh I should mention that I bluffed a donk and failed 2 hands before.
So my image was weak.


*********** # 3 **************
PokerStars Game #60043642608: Tournament #414010123, $30+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2011/03/30 0:19:15 PT [2011/03/30 3:19:15 ET]
Table '414010123 24' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: DoePopoe (5445 in chips)
Seat 2: ALLINBREAKER (8760 in chips)
Seat 3: _BARRCUDA_ (4862 in chips)
Seat 4: soupie (4725 in chips)
Seat 5: dontgetgot (7888 in chips)
Seat 6: daffywon (7733 in chips)
Seat 7: brookey808 (4640 in chips)
Seat 8: allintreats (6313 in chips)
Seat 9: IseeCookies (6070 in chips)
allintreats: posts small blind 75
IseeCookies: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IseeCookies [9d 6d]
DoePopoe: folds
ALLINBREAKER: folds
_BARRCUDA_: folds
soupie: folds
dontgetgot: folds
daffywon: folds
brookey808: folds
allintreats: calls 75
IseeCookies: checks
*** FLOP *** [2c 2d 3s]
allintreats: checks
IseeCookies: checks
*** TURN *** [2c 2d 3s] [Qc]
allintreats: checks
IseeCookies: checks
*** RIVER *** [2c 2d 3s Qc] [Qd]
allintreats: checks
IseeCookies: bets 450
allintreats: calls 450
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IseeCookies: shows [9d 6d] (two pair, Queens and Deuces)
allintreats: shows [4d Kc] (two pair, Queens and Deuces - King kicker)
allintreats collected 1200 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1200 | Rake 0
Board [2c 2d 3s Qc Qd]
Seat 1: DoePopoe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: ALLINBREAKER folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: _BARRCUDA_ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: soupie folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: dontgetgot folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: daffywon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: brookey808 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: allintreats (small blind) showed [4d Kc] and won (1200) with two pair, Queens and Deuces
Seat 9: IseeCookies (big blind) showed [9d 6d] and lost with two pair, Queens and Deuces

I know this is a funny line I took but its a bit meta game and I find bad players like to copy cat.
So I overbet expecting a fold.It was clear they didnt have anything and usually people will fold especially since it was a overbet.So I got a ton of info on this player when they called King high.
It also shows the table I am aggressive and the next time I over bet like this I will most likely be bluffing too,but I wont be.
 
Old
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Wed Mar 30, 2011, 08:35 AM
(#2)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Hi Rubber,

I like the name change btw. I just might steal the old avatar though.

I simply do not have experience at this sort of buy in level but I will throw an opinion out there for the craic.

I think table image has a lot to do with the way people play here and as you said this is an aggressive player pre flop although you had only saw him play eleven hands. I personally don't like the slow play on the As, trapping often ends up with you trapping yourself I think. If you had raised I feel the villain would have folded, even if he might have thought you were just playing position on the big blind.

The flop brings you to a decision, two checks and you put out just over a half pot sized bet, a feeler bet I think. When he went all in I see nothing but going for the flush draw, so hard to fold the bullets and you still have the Ace of spades for the two outer. Even being close to the money I would have called as well. He has nine outs to catch his flush, but there are still more cards that favour him not doing that. I still do not understand why he went all in though on a flush draw with the bubble so close. Fortune favours the brave sometimes.

TC
 
Old
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Wed Mar 30, 2011, 09:36 AM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
I have two hands in this post,one to show my thinking for the hand I went out on and of course the out hand.

So first thing I will give you a read on the table.
I have history with one player and thats Soupie he is a decent player and I knew he would fold to a 2bet preflop so I flatted hoping he would cbet the flop,which is rare but I guy can dream.
Villain calls behind and I only have 11 hands on him and he has played aggressively post flop and I have only seen one hand go to showdown,which helped me out.
Here is the hand I saw before the out hand.


*********** # 10 **************
PokerStars Game #60043505023: Tournament #414010123, $30+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2011/03/30 0:11:32 PT [2011/03/30 3:11:32 ET]
Table '414010123 24' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: DoePopoe (6270 in chips)
Seat 2: ALLINBREAKER (4380 in chips)
Seat 3: _BARRCUDA_ (4487 in chips)
Seat 4: soupie (4800 in chips)
Seat 5: dontgetgot (7813 in chips)
Seat 6: daffywon (6983 in chips)
Seat 7: brookey808 (4565 in chips)
Seat 8: allintreats (11068 in chips)
Seat 9: IseeCookies (6070 in chips)
DoePopoe: posts small blind 75
ALLINBREAKER: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IseeCookies [3d 5h]
_BARRCUDA_ has timed out
_BARRCUDA_: folds
_BARRCUDA_ is sitting out
soupie: folds
dontgetgot: folds
daffywon: folds
brookey808: folds
_BARRCUDA_ has returned
allintreats: raises 255 to 405
IseeCookies: folds
DoePopoe: folds
ALLINBREAKER: raises 255 to 660
allintreats: calls 255
*** FLOP *** [9c 2s 8h]
ALLINBREAKER: bets 320
allintreats: raises 10088 to 10408 and is all-in
ALLINBREAKER: calls 3400 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (6688) returned to allintreats
*** TURN *** [9c 2s 8h] [6h]
*** RIVER *** [9c 2s 8h 6h] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ALLINBREAKER: shows [8d 8s] (three of a kind, Eights)
allintreats: shows [9d As] (a pair of Nines)
ALLINBREAKER collected 8835 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8835 | Rake 0
Board [9c 2s 8h 6h Th]
Seat 1: DoePopoe (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: ALLINBREAKER (big blind) showed [8d 8s] and won (8835) with three of a kind, Eights
Seat 3: _BARRCUDA_ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: soupie folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: dontgetgot folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: daffywon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: brookey808 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: allintreats showed [9d As] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 9: IseeCookies (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)


So you can see how he plays trips in this hand and how he bets less to induce a bad play from his opponent.


Now the out hand.


*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #60043674872: Tournament #414010123, $30+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2011/03/30 0:21:05 PT [2011/03/30 3:21:05 ET]
Table '414010123 24' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: DoePopoe (5295 in chips)
Seat 2: ALLINBREAKER (8985 in chips)
Seat 3: _BARRCUDA_ (4862 in chips)
Seat 4: soupie (4725 in chips)
Seat 5: dontgetgot (7888 in chips)
Seat 6: daffywon (7733 in chips)
Seat 7: brookey808 (4640 in chips)
Seat 8: allintreats (6913 in chips)
Seat 9: IseeCookies (5395 in chips)
DoePopoe: posts small blind 75
ALLINBREAKER: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IseeCookies [As Ah]
_BARRCUDA_: folds
soupie: raises 225 to 375
dontgetgot: folds
daffywon: folds
brookey808: folds
allintreats: folds
IseeCookies: calls 375
DoePopoe: folds
ALLINBREAKER: calls 225
*** FLOP *** [3s 2d Qs]
ALLINBREAKER: checks
soupie: checks
IseeCookies: bets 720
ALLINBREAKER: raises 7890 to 8610 and is all-in
soupie: folds
IseeCookies: calls 4300 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (3590) returned to ALLINBREAKER
*** TURN *** [3s 2d Qs] [Js]
*** RIVER *** [3s 2d Qs Js] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ALLINBREAKER: shows [8s Ks] (a flush, King high)
IseeCookies: shows [As Ah] (a pair of Aces)
ALLINBREAKER collected 11240 from pot
IseeCookies finished the tournament in 208th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11240 | Rake 0
Board [3s 2d Qs Js 5c]
Seat 1: DoePopoe (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: ALLINBREAKER (big blind) showed [8s Ks] and won (11240) with a flush, King high
Seat 3: _BARRCUDA_ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: soupie folded on the Flop
Seat 5: dontgetgot folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: daffywon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: brookey808 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: allintreats folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: IseeCookies (button) showed [As Ah] and lost with a pair of Aces


So I have his range pretty narrow preflop since he doesnt do this with trips and QQ would be a raise preflop most of the time.I put him his range on exactly AQ or a flush draw.
Because I held the Ace I felt that it was more likely AQ or KQ and if it was a flush draw we could race.
Sure enough he got it in with K8s and we where off to the races.So if I would have won this pot I would have been in the top 3 with just over 200 players left and top 63 getting paid.

Now the question is this:
Knowing how close I am to cashing (sitting about 44th) do I fold this on the flop?
I have found in the past that you cant take every +EV spot and win a tourney,it just doesnt happen.
So Im left thinking in reflection that I still call but would like some thoughts.

Yes I could have raised preflop and taken it down but was thinking I would be HU with Soupie and he would sniff out a funny line pretty quick.
Oh I should mention that I bluffed a donk and failed 2 hands before.
So my image was weak.


*********** # 3 **************
PokerStars Game #60043642608: Tournament #414010123, $30+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2011/03/30 0:19:15 PT [2011/03/30 3:19:15 ET]
Table '414010123 24' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: DoePopoe (5445 in chips)
Seat 2: ALLINBREAKER (8760 in chips)
Seat 3: _BARRCUDA_ (4862 in chips)
Seat 4: soupie (4725 in chips)
Seat 5: dontgetgot (7888 in chips)
Seat 6: daffywon (7733 in chips)
Seat 7: brookey808 (4640 in chips)
Seat 8: allintreats (6313 in chips)
Seat 9: IseeCookies (6070 in chips)
allintreats: posts small blind 75
IseeCookies: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IseeCookies [9d 6d]
DoePopoe: folds
ALLINBREAKER: folds
_BARRCUDA_: folds
soupie: folds
dontgetgot: folds
daffywon: folds
brookey808: folds
allintreats: calls 75
IseeCookies: checks
*** FLOP *** [2c 2d 3s]
allintreats: checks
IseeCookies: checks
*** TURN *** [2c 2d 3s] [Qc]
allintreats: checks
IseeCookies: checks
*** RIVER *** [2c 2d 3s Qc] [Qd]
allintreats: checks
IseeCookies: bets 450
allintreats: calls 450
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IseeCookies: shows [9d 6d] (two pair, Queens and Deuces)
allintreats: shows [4d Kc] (two pair, Queens and Deuces - King kicker)
allintreats collected 1200 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1200 | Rake 0
Board [2c 2d 3s Qc Qd]
Seat 1: DoePopoe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: ALLINBREAKER folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: _BARRCUDA_ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: soupie folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: dontgetgot folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: daffywon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: brookey808 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: allintreats (small blind) showed [4d Kc] and won (1200) with two pair, Queens and Deuces
Seat 9: IseeCookies (big blind) showed [9d 6d] and lost with two pair, Queens and Deuces

I know this is a funny line I took but its a bit meta game and I find bad players like to copy cat.
So I overbet expecting a fold.It was clear they didnt have anything and usually people will fold especially since it was a overbet.So I got a ton of info on this player when they called King high.
It also shows the table I am aggressive and the next time I over bet like this I will most likely be bluffing too,but I wont be.
Only thing I'd ask is why you didn't leverage your "weak" image by raising in LP? Sure, you may lose a customer, but a smallish 3 bet may be enough to convince this shove monster to leave the pot alone.

As played, you not only face the possibility his shove is a better made hand, but you also have a myriad of 2 way draws possible in a BB hand who can call in with a bit over 3 to 1 odds. At least your As eliminates some of the gut shot wheel/flush draw combos tho...

Still, I think your read was strong, and your heart was pure, and you did the right thing in the end. The fact the devil decided to take a poop in your hat on this hand doesn't change that fact, and sometimes you are gunna lose when you are a decent favorite. As you say: You win this and you probably run deep...

Overall reasonaing looks good, but sometimes luck happens.
 
Old
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Wed Mar 30, 2011, 01:21 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
First thing, for the newer members reading this, very nice post. All the detail of the hand, reads, history, etc all provided. When seeking feedback on your play, do it like this.

Vs. the villain with what you know about the player and the history, I'm beating him into the pot on this flop. I think you're read is right on, his range will consist largely of Qx and flush draws, and your equity is very good against this range. Yes sometimes you can pass edges for stack protection in mtt's, but generally that will be small edges, this edge is too big to consider passing.

Also I too would generally have 3b soupie pre, soupie is a strong mtt reg and if you've just been caught bluffing he's going to take that into consideration that you would think he thinks you won't bluff again so soon. And the stack sizes aren't bad for him to 4b bluff you or 4b for value with big pairs and AK. You made the comment you and soupie have history and you knew he would fold to a 3b, so if you feel that way ok with the flat, but I would submit to you that if true, you're not 3b him enough in position.

Dave
 
Old
Default
Wed Mar 30, 2011, 02:17 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
I tend to give certain players to much respect and Soupie is one of them.
Knowing he folds to my raise preflop made me think I could get a cbet out of him on the flop and call it a day.Didnt think the newer player to the table was going to call behind.

I think you hit on something with the 3betting,since I am still quite a passive person preflop.
So 3bets from me are a sign of strength and most people that play a bit will fold.So it looks like I need to balance my range a bit more with weaker hands.

The table had been pretty tight and at least 2 hands a orbit would get folded to the blinds,so I didnt
really think about some one calling behind and will work on this a bit today.
 
Old
Default
Wed Mar 30, 2011, 06:23 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
I think you hit on something with the 3betting,since I am still quite a passive person preflop.
So 3bets from me are a sign of strength and most people that play a bit will fold.
It also sets up the perfect scenario to put in a bluff too.... and if you know the person tilts easily, it's a given that you need to show them the bluff after doing it.
 
Old
Default
Wed Mar 30, 2011, 07:43 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
I think you hit on something with the 3betting,since I am still quite a passive person preflop. So 3bets from me are a sign of strength and most people that play a bit will fold.So it looks like I need to balance my range a bit more with weaker hands.
Against solid regs like soupie I would balance by 3b a polarized range of value and bluff hands. You probably know that already, just throwing it out there.
 

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