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Caught in the middle. Can I fold this?

 
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Caught in the middle. Can I fold this? - Thu Mar 31, 2011, 08:39 AM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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I have been at the table roughly 20 hands.

My Thoughts:
Pre-flop, I know the BB and SB both tend to be very aggressive post flop in limped pots. Both have shown they will multi-barrel pot size bets and larger quite lightly. They seemed to be using their stacks to "bully" quite a bit. Both their ranges are VERY wide, and they have each been in roughly 8 or 9 pots since I sat. Needless to say, they are "driving" the action at the table.

Rogannovi had sat 3 hands earlier (with $5), immediately posted, and lost the first hand he played. This is only the 2nd hand he saw the flop. There was no showdown.

I limp with the thought that my KJo is probably ahead of a good portion of the range of the blinds,. Except for the blinds, the table has not shown a whole lot of pre-flop aggression (except for "standard" type open raises); there have been no pre-flop 3-bets except a 3 bet I made with my AK from the SB.

I have seen a lot of garbage shown down by the entire table (except Roganovi) in my short time here, including weak aces, face cards with no kickers, and un-suited connectors and gappers.

In short, this is a pretty "typical", 1c/2c NLHE table.

Back Ground:

I sat with $1.

I have shown down JJ (board over pair) and KQ (top 2) only, and have VPiP'ed pre-flop 4 times total.

(AK on an AAx flop that didn't get shown, and 99 on a Q62 flop that I raised pre-flop and took down on continuation).

When I played my JJ, I stacked a shorter guy by getting him all in coming over the top on the turn to beat his 44.

When I played my KQ I flopped top pair in position and simply called a C-Bet. I raised a turn bet when I hit my Q and beat K8.

I lost a ~65c pot (to Smitfan) with AQ from the BB when I flopped top/2nd, and the villain spiked a 2nd pair 5 for his A5 on the river when all in.

These were all the hands I played.

Question:

I recognized the possibility of a set or a straight when I hit my 2nd pair. I also know once I hit that 2nd pair AND called the bet by CatStory I am "stuck".

Was flatting perhaps NOT the best Idea when I hit the top pair on the flop?

Last edited by JDean; Thu Mar 31, 2011 at 08:48 AM..
 
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Thu Mar 31, 2011, 11:41 AM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
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First off I raise pre when I'm first in the pot (and I would open this at the table as described). I don't like limping first in. That's just how I roll.

Flop call I like. You're in a way ahead/way behind spot vs. the flop bettor and still have people to act behind you. We have a small pot hand at this point, raising only builds the pot with a hand that doesn't really warrant it yet. The BB may be betting wildly but still he's making a big bet relative to the pot (more than pot sized), so let's keep his bluffs in, not build the pot any more than we have to, and see what the players still to act behind us think.

Turn I really don't like the call, I think if we're committed (I am) we should get it in right here ourselves. Make sure we get KT and JT in the middle before a potential scary river comes off, and get KQ, QJ, QT in while it's still drawing and has poor equity against us with 1 card to come.

Dave
 
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Thu Mar 31, 2011, 11:42 AM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
test
 
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Thu Mar 31, 2011, 01:59 PM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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With so many people seeing the flop, theres always going to be a chance your up against a set. In theory less than 50% of the time vs 4 players, since if all 4 had pocket pairs theres a 4/8 chance atleast 1 person flops a set. However, when multiple people are showing strength and building the pot that increases the chances someone did hit a set.

In this hand raise or fold KJo, limping is not good, and this hand is a good example why. You flopped top pair with a J kicker and had no idea where you stood vs 4 other players. All you had was the theory you should be slightly ahead with top pair vs all limpers. The SB betting strong into 4 people is a red flag for someone holding a hand like yours. Problem is, because you limped it is hard to fold KJ here. Then when you spike the J on the turn it is even harder to fold. I think post flop you were kind of stuck the entire time. People play wild in 2NL you could have easily ran into stupidly played hands here like AK or AA. Honestly though, you could have considered folding the flop. With so many people seeing the flop it was a very marginal spot, and the pot was big and only going to get much bigger. A call was reasonable too. Next time, try raising 3BB to 6c and maybe get some of those limpers to fold. Then when you bet the flop, if the SB did outflop you, he would check-raise you most likely and you can fold. You would lose less in total this way when your behind. You will have a better idea if your ahead or not, and will get to set the price when you are, instead of having the SB overbetting.

To summary: The primary problem with this hand is your limp preflop. It was the root cause of this tough(and unlucky) situation.
 
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Thu Mar 31, 2011, 08:11 PM
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JDean's Avatar
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I don't disagree at all with the "no limp" pre-flop. If i'm ahead of the range, this hand has plenty of strength to raise pre at a 5 handed table.

Fact was, I limped because I knew there was that over-bet tendency. I really didn't want the 2/3rds of the time I MISS see me folding away 8c or 10c when I can fold 2c instead.

Dave, you also confirmed my thinking re the urn. I shoulda pushed right there on 2 pr.

I got a bit "greedy" insofar as I was hoping for yet another big river bet with top 2. "Course the turn gave the button the straight, and I was sunk anyway.

thanks guys. You boh jsut sorta confirmed my thinking about the line I took: it was too "risky" with this weak a hand, and I really shoulda lived or died earlier, 'cause I jsut risked losing value.
 
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Thu Mar 31, 2011, 11:09 PM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Fact was, I limped because I knew there was that over-bet tendency.
Bad... don't start making mistakes because they are. Being passive with KJo because they are overbetting is a mistake. Raise or fold, and yes folding is an option with KJo in that position if your worried about getting overbet out of a pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
I really didn't want the 2/3rds of the time I MISS see me folding away 8c or 10c when I can fold 2c instead.
Raise to 6c then. Start building the pot right away, you either have the best hand or have a chance to outflop or bluff any callers. If your constantly raising to 10c with KJo your almost always going to get folded to preflop or called by better hands. Give worse hands a chance to play with you. You the man JDean, they will make more mistakes than you postflop, don't force them out preflop when your ahead. 6c is often enough to properly thin the field.


I feel wierd trying to give my analysis and suggestions to you JDean, you know more about poker than I do. I really enjoy reading your analysis on hands it is amazing the depth you get into. Sounds like you haven't played 2NL 6max much though? Hope I was able to add something helpful to the analysis.
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 12:47 AM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockerguyAA View Post
Bad... don't start making mistakes because they are. Being passive with KJo because they are overbetting is a mistake. Raise or fold, and yes folding is an option with KJo in that position if your worried about getting overbet out of a pot.


Raise to 6c then. Start building the pot right away, you either have the best hand or have a chance to outflop or bluff any callers. If your constantly raising to 10c with KJo your almost always going to get folded to preflop or called by better hands. Give worse hands a chance to play with you. You the man JDean, they will make more mistakes than you postflop, don't force them out preflop when your ahead. 6c is often enough to properly thin the field.


I feel wierd trying to give my analysis and suggestions to you JDean, you know more about poker than I do. I really enjoy reading your analysis on hands it is amazing the depth you get into. Sounds like you haven't played 2NL 6max much though? Hope I was able to add something helpful to the analysis.
My NLHE cash game is VERY rusty. I did play live full time for a year, and situations like this woulda been obvious for me; even tho I played full ring live (mostly) and very rarely played 6 max...

Keep in mind rocker...I know the line I took is potentially not "optimal" when I do it, but it is exploitative of an observed tendency. I am not going to go so far as to say it is "wrong", but it IS "risky"...about the same way limping AA from EP is "risky" even tho you know there are 2 or 3 guys who "attack" limpers behind you, ya know? In that situation, you may well see a tight image result in a multi-way CALLED pot- doesn;t mean your lump was WRONG...jsut that it didn;t work, ya know?

"Course as I stated, my hand was AR from a "huge" on like AA, so I do agree I should have not tried this risky play...

As for you feeling wierd giving me advice...DON'T.

Ask The Langolier, he has seen me do some REALLY wierd things live plenty of times

So I do appreciate your input.

Thanks a lot.
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 01:44 AM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Ask The Langolier, he has seen me do some REALLY wierd things live plenty of times
Yes, well, not sure I'd call any of them "weird" per say....


Sorry I couldn't resist.
 

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