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Please analyze this hand

 
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Please analyze this hand - Thu Mar 31, 2011, 05:13 PM
(#1)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
Should I have just called his raised and bet the flop? I thought I was going to win this tournament. The way the guy played this I thought he might have ak or aq because he didnt go all in after I reraised he just reraised me back. How would you guys have played this? Man I really needed to win here. Soooo Broke....

Last edited by pokerstar671; Thu Mar 31, 2011 at 05:15 PM.. Reason: ...
 
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Thu Mar 31, 2011, 05:18 PM
(#2)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
Also I was the bubble before the final table should I have waited for a better hand or waited until the guy sitting out was out?
 
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Thu Mar 31, 2011, 05:22 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
Im going to presume this is a final table.
He min bets utg,nothing really bad about that at this lvl.
When you 3bet him and he fires back,you can not flat in that spot.
Its either shove or fold.
People will not flat with KK or AA to often at this point and you turn your hand up when you flat.
Me personally would have jammed unless the player was not known to 4bet to often and had a tight image like 12 vpip or lower.

He isnt folding preflop with his 4bet sizing,so its a easy jam or fold depending on your reads.
 
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Thu Mar 31, 2011, 05:54 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
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I agree, it's either got to be a shove or fold with the raise.

If you were at the bubble, I'd have mucked.. and made sure that low stack got bubbled too.

Last edited by JWK24; Thu Mar 31, 2011 at 05:57 PM..
 
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?? - Thu Mar 31, 2011, 07:59 PM
(#5)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
pardon me- yet i love the flat there- sure he got drawn out on-- but got it in good on a great flop- for JJ-- got drawn out on is all- if flop is not cool- like over cards-- still has decent stack left-- why jam pre-- ---- the whole table is short- not just the hero-- gl all - monk--

i couldnt be more wrong in above-- srry all--post 10 is what i meant-

Last edited by monkeyskunk4; Fri Apr 01, 2011 at 02:28 AM.. Reason: was wrong
 
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Thu Mar 31, 2011, 08:21 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Im going to presume this is a final table.
He min bets utg,nothing really bad about that at this lvl.
When you 3bet him and he fires back,you can not flat in that spot.
Its either shove or fold.
People will not flat with KK or AA to often at this point and you turn your hand up when you flat.
Me personally would have jammed unless the player was not known to 4bet to often and had a tight image like 12 vpip or lower.

He isnt folding preflop with his 4bet sizing,so its a easy jam or fold depending on your reads.
Agree.

Per the way the hand played out pre-flop, You gunna fold half your stack if an Ace flops?

I think you might have been better served flatting the raise, then deciding, OR...
Folding to his 4 bet, OR...
Shipping as a 5 bet.

The "best" depends upon your reads, and your "feel".

Bottom line is, his 4 bet has him deep enough into YOUR stack he is calling if you jam, so you are not "losing" value if you hold the best hand in most cases. For this reaosn I don't agree with Monkeyskunk at all in saying the smooth call of the 4 bet is the way to go.

Jam, or fold and save 140k here.

Last edited by JDean; Thu Mar 31, 2011 at 08:24 PM..
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 01:49 AM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Im going to presume this is a final table.
He min bets utg,nothing really bad about that at this lvl.
When you 3bet him and he fires back,you can not flat in that spot.
Its either shove or fold.
People will not flat with KK or AA to often at this point and you turn your hand up when you flat.
Me personally would have jammed unless the player was not known to 4bet to often and had a tight image like 12 vpip or lower.

He isnt folding preflop with his 4bet sizing,so its a easy jam or fold depending on your reads.
+1, Jam or fold depending on reads and situation but don't flat the 4b for this much of your stack pre.
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 01:55 AM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
You said you're on the bubble, is it an important bubble? Standard money bubble (not important)? Final table bubble (maybe a good pay jump?) Satellite bubble (critical) etc.

You have 23 bb's and the short stack has 2, if your thoughts are towards stack protection then maybe you can flat the original raise pre in position (NOT 3b and flat a 4b), it's only a min-raise, and play the flop in position. Depends on the villain too, this will be an ok line vs some and not so much vs others. If the big money is in first place though I'm not flatting here generally, I'm going with JJ on 23 bb's.
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 01:59 AM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
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BTW 3b/folding JJ is probably a pretty decent leak on a 23 bb stack, I think vs. an UTG min-raiser if we feel like we'll have to fold JJ to a 4b, we probably shouldn't 3b to 40K just flat 16K, we can flat a 20K c bet and still have spent less than our 40K 3b would have cost. JJ has a lot of value in this situation but if we 3b/fold it we're turning it into 72. When we 3b 72 (or some other steal) and get 4b folding is the plan. When we 3b with a top hand on a 23bb stack the plan should be to go with it.
 
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?? - Fri Apr 01, 2011, 02:14 AM
(#10)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
hey guys- i watched the hand again after your replies- and of course agree with you- i missed the 3bet-- from the hero- assumed he had just called the min raise-on the button-- and thats the play i was saying i liked- JJ in position-- can control the pot- and get out at the first sign of trouble- srry 4 the confusion-- gl monk--

Last edited by monkeyskunk4; Fri Apr 01, 2011 at 02:30 AM..
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 05:56 AM
(#11)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
thanks for analyzing this. I think I know what I will do next time.
 
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Sun Apr 03, 2011, 06:19 PM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
BTW 3b/folding JJ is probably a pretty decent leak on a 23 bb stack, I think vs. an UTG min-raiser if we feel like we'll have to fold JJ to a 4b, we probably shouldn't 3b to 40K just flat 16K, we can flat a 20K c bet and still have spent less than our 40K 3b would have cost. JJ has a lot of value in this situation but if we 3b/fold it we're turning it into 72. When we 3b 72 (or some other steal) and get 4b folding is the plan. When we 3b with a top hand on a 23bb stack the plan should be to go with it.
What's a leak? And what's 72 (or some other steal) ... is that the cards, 7 and 2?

I had almost the same hand as pokerstar671 ... I've attached it below:

 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 10:12 AM
(#13)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
What's a leak? And what's 72 (or some other steal) ... is that the cards, 7 and 2?
A leak = leaking chips = a mistake

Yes the cards 72.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 11:04 AM
(#14)
EA2USN's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 176
BronzeStar
I think you played the hand correct TrustySam just unfortunate turn of cards. You put him to the test with the allin reraise and he called with correct odds and got lucky against ya.

6 outs on the flop approx 24% or slightly better than 4-1 odds pot was laying him 3.912 to 1





I would do it the same every time in that situation

Last edited by EA2USN; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 11:13 AM..
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 05:59 PM
(#15)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
+1, Jam or fold depending on reads and situation but don't flat the 4b for this much of your stack pre.

BTW 3b/folding JJ is probably a pretty decent leak on a 23 bb stack, I think vs. an UTG min-raiser if we feel like we'll have to fold JJ to a 4b, we probably shouldn't 3b to 40K just flat 16K, we can flat a 20K c bet and still have spent less than our 40K 3b would have cost. JJ has a lot of value in this situation but if we 3b/fold it we're turning it into 72. When we 3b 72 (or some other steal) and get 4b folding is the plan. When we 3b with a top hand on a 23bb stack the plan should be to go with it.

A leak = leaking chips = a mistake

Yes the cards 72.
Oh, okay - and 3b is the 3rd reraise pre-flop, 4b is the 4th reraise pre-flop (not 3 times the big blind, 4 times the big blind).

So when pokerstar671 was faced with a 4b, it was probably better to either go all-in or fold since it was so much of their stack ... but then again, fold wouldn't really have been a good move in the face of a 4b because then, shoot, the JJ's getting treated no better than if it was a junk hand like 72, rather than the premium hand that it is. So for pokerstar671 maybe it would have been better just to call the 16k rather than 3b it to 40k.

And then with less in the pot, when the villain c-bet post-flop, they could have jammed it and really made a statement, and hopefully gotten them to fold. Because then they would have each only committed 16k of their 186k+ pots, which is nothing.

Interesting!! Okay, ty Dave!
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:12 PM
(#16)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EA2USN View Post
I think you played the hand correct TrustySam just unfortunate turn of cards. You put him to the test with the allin reraise and he called with correct odds and got lucky against ya.

6 outs on the flop approx 24% or slightly better than 4-1 odds pot was laying him 3.912 to 1

I would do it the same every time in that situation
That's interesting too, because I'm feeling like it should have been possible for me to get the villain to fold their hand, but somehow I misplayed this.

I haven't had a chance to watch Dave's training video on Commitment Decisions so I wasn't thinking about stack sizes. And I use Tournament Indicator, which is great for calculating all those pot odds for me, but that wasn't even on my radar to do it for the opponent and whether or not they were likely to call.

I thought my all-in post-flop was going to signal to the villain that I had them in a bad spot, and that they'd feel pressure to fold. But now that you point out the odds, of course they called. And then I was second-guessing whether I should have 3bet them pre-flop, or just called post-flop and then waited until the turn to go all-in (assuming they slowed down with their c-bets). But pre-flop I thought they might have had QQ or better, and the turn card gave them a ton of extra outs, so I guess that wouldn't have worked out so hot either.

So, shoot ... probably I could have bet more at the outset, but I guess sometimes people will just catch one of their outs on the river and next time the hand will win and that's poker?

I'll have to make a point to watch Dave's class on Commitment Decisions ... sounds like I'll learn a lot. Looking forward to that! Thx to you too EA2USN for the feedback!
 

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