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How To Multitable At 10NL?

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How To Multitable At 10NL? - Fri Apr 01, 2011, 03:55 AM
(#1)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
So, I just got off of a three hour session of multitabling between nine and fourteen tables of fast 6-max 10NL, and I'm up about 140 VPP's. I booked a $10 loss, and I think that's impressive in a good way, since I've never tried that many tables at once and was fully expecting to lose more money. I also had no real strategy, but sort of developed the basis of one while playing. I'd like to ask for your guys' help in picking out where I'm probably losing money (aside from the whole playing fourteen tables at once thing), so that I'll to be able to score at least a little profit while I do these VPP sessions.

So, here's how I played them:

I figured that the more hands I played (and the fancier I tried to get in playing them), the more I'd leak, so I tried to keep a very straightforward approach to betting and folding, as well as a tight value opening range.

These were more or less my opening ranges from each seat:

1st Position: ATs+ AQo+ KQs 44+
2nd Position: A8s+ AJo+ KJs+ 33+
3rd Position: A6s+ ATo+ KTs+ KQo QJs 22+
4th Position: Ax+ K9s+ KJo+ QJs JTs 22+
Small Blind: Ax+ Kx+ QJo+ Q8s+ JTs 22+

My 3betting was sort of disorganized, but I would never 3bet bluff. When I 3bet, it was usually with a range of ATs+ AQo+, and 77+, but I'd sometimes call in position with those hands as well. I didn't 3bet much when I had position on the opener, and I'd fold most of the time that I was 4bet (although I did manage to pick up some reads from watching the tables that allowed me to make some pretty profitable calls with marginal hands).

My opens were always 3x. If there was a limper behind, then it went up to 4x. If there were more limpers or if I was reraising preflop, I just clicked my pot button and made an even bigger bet.

I c-bet most of the time, and here I found that my c-bets were folded to less than half the time. I kept c-bet bluffing anyway, and I lost a lot of money doing it, I think. But my big hands were almost always paid off at least a little bit if they made it to the flop. Next time I hit the tables, I'm definitely c-betting less, but I need to figure out what to c-bet and what not to. Who to c-bet isn't much of an issue, because virtually nobody folded to my c-bets more than half the time. Everybody called me. It was like throwing money at a wall. My bluffs were just not getting through.

I'd generally bet my made hands aggressively post-flop and wasn't being a nit about losing money. I'd judge my draws case by case, and I probably folded most of them. I also occasionally flat called with small pairs or suited connectors from the blinds if I thought my pot odds were good, but I think I'll just be folding those next time. I didn't have very much success playing them OOP. I also found that when I hit, my implied odds weren't there because my opponents' position was helping them minimize their losses. So draws OOP didn't really work out. I'd sometimes flat with them in position, and that wasn't so bad.

Also, I found a guy with a Heath Ledger Joker avatar who was actually pretty bad. That surprised me.

So, if anybody can give me any little tips for my next session, I'd appreciate it. Thanks for reading!
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 04:46 AM
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DEMONTIS7's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 209
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Here's an idea Panicky, I will relate this directly to Rush Poker on FTP

You got 15 tables going at the same time.

Just play premiun hands from any position, fold anything else

Use the Chris Ferguson method of PFR,,,, in EP, 2.5x in MP, 3x in LP,,,do this consistantly and your oppenents will have a hard time putting on a hand. But they will know you got something good.

The tables will go by so fast that premiun hands will occur often enough. And folding the lesser ranked hands will keep you from getting bogged down or involved in anything complicated.

You'll get to play all the fun/garbage hands in the BB/SB, and even some on the button,,,,consider it your reward for being such a tight azz

use the K.I.S.S. principle. Tables zip by,,,,decision making is minimal,,,Premiun, Quality hands should pay for the blinds, maybe even alittle profit.

>Dem
p.s. as far as c-betting,,,if you don't hit the flop,,,,you could bluff,,chase,,,or my personal favorite - fold....it will save you alot a $$

Last edited by DEMONTIS7; Fri Apr 01, 2011 at 05:06 AM..
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 11:46 AM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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I find when multi-tabling an easy way to leak a lot of chips over time is to call too loosely out of position. You can have a wide opening range, especially near and on the button, but if someone else has already raised or you are 3-bet you need to be willing to fold much of your range. Always raising 3BB (and +1BB for each limper) is a good strategy. People will figure out that you have a wide range, but will never be sure exactly how strong your hand is.

You might as well open with 22+ in any position. Theres no reason to play 44 UTG but not 33 or 22, they will play out postflop very similarly. Also, I would suggest tightening your range in the SB not expanding it. You are out of position if the BB calls.

C-betting is very tricky. It is still something I am working on. I would suggest checking missed(dry) flops about 50% of the time. Check missed(wet) flops 33% of the time. It is easier to represent an A or a K on a wet flop. In general, C-bet more often in position. Rarely c-bet if you get more than one caller and miss the flop, unless your in position and have some decent outs. If you get looked up a couple times when c-betting and end up folding/mucking, it will probably hurt your table image so start c-betting less at that table. Try to identify anyone who calls on the flop a lot and note it. If someone calls a flop c-bet with one overcard or something similarly stupid, make a note of it and do not c-bet them with air. Do value bet the hell out of them when you do hit though.
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 12:10 PM
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DEMONTIS7's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 209
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when you're playing 15 tables,,you don't have time to analyse to that depth,,,KISS principle is the best strategy,,,
>Dem
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 02:03 PM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEMONTIS7 View Post
when you're playing 15 tables,,you don't have time to analyse to that depth,,,KISS principle is the best strategy,,,
>Dem
I disagree with both those statements. While obviously you can't get super deep into a hand, you do have enough time and concentration to analyse the situation. I know from personal experience of this 12 tabling, but watch somone like Nanonoko play 20+ tables and you will see him analyze hands very well. I completely disagree that 'KISS' principle you described is the best strategy, It may be a winning strategy, but there is no way that it is the best strategy. People will pick up on it and steal your blinds constantly, then when you put up a fight with a premium hand they will insta-fold unless they happen to have an even more premium hand. That strategy may be better suited for 9max tables.
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 02:35 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
Playing only premium hands at 6max will cost you a lot of chips and playing 15 tables will have people just eating your blinds.
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 02:41 PM
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DEMONTIS7's Avatar
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well,,,you make a good point there....but how loose is acceptable?
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 02:47 PM
(#8)
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When I play 6 max I start out with one table and get reads on them.
Once I am comfortable with my reads I add another table and repeat the process.

As for how loose you should be that is all dependant on your reads at the table.
Ace high is some times acceptable against a fish.If a table is to nitty you just close and start a new table.
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 03:29 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockerguyAA View Post
I find when multi-tabling an easy way to leak a lot of chips over time is to call too loosely out of position.
This is an easy way to leak a lot of chips over time when not multi-tabling, too.
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 05:46 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I tried the only premium hand thing a little while ago at 5NL, and it worked terribly.

I didn't get reads on everybody at all my tables since I started them all up at the same time, but I was surprised how much I was learning running 14 tables.

As for the 44+ part of my range, I was deliberately folding the lower pairs from EP, flatting with 44+ in position, and occasionally 3betting from OOP with 44+. The reason was, I was playing pairs pretty passively if there were at least two overcards on the flop. So, if I played 22 and I didn't hit a set, I was almost always folding them, unless I thought that I could steal the pot. I just wanted to tighten my plays and stop setmining so much, so I cut out just the two pairs. I was just tightening my range a little bit, so there was some purpose to not treating 22 and 33 the same as any other pair.
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 10:06 PM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
As for the 44+ part of my range, I was deliberately folding the lower pairs from EP, flatting with 44+ in position, and occasionally 3betting from OOP with 44+. The reason was, I was playing pairs pretty passively if there were at least two overcards on the flop. So, if I played 22 and I didn't hit a set, I was almost always folding them, unless I thought that I could steal the pot. I just wanted to tighten my plays and stop setmining so much, so I cut out just the two pairs. I was just tightening my range a little bit, so there was some purpose to not treating 22 and 33 the same as any other pair.
When you start to flat with small pocket pairs, many people will eventually notice this and exploit it. They will start to 3-bet you heavily when they are in position. Passivity preflop will get attacked more often than not in 5NL+ (not so much in 2NL). If your going to call a raise with a small pocket pair, you might as well raise first yourself. Sure most the time you won't flop a set, but if your the aggressor you will have the option to try and take the pot down with a c-bet. Any callers will be less likely to bet the flop with weak or moderate strength hands as well, increasing the chances you might get to see a free turn card. Small and medium pocket pairs will often not improve and you will have to fold, but once and a while you will win huge pots when you hit your set and get action. You want the pot to start building preflop with any pocket pair to induce as much action as possible, increasing your chances to get paid big when you hit the set.
 
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Fri Apr 01, 2011, 10:44 PM
(#12)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I understand how setmining works, Rocker. I do not play my pairs passively preflop. I just fold them on most flops. The reason I cut down on the pairs that I'm playing is because I don't want people to notice me habitually check/folding after the flop. By cutting down on the small pocket pairs I play preflop by roughly 20%, the idea is that I will be playing passively less after the flop.

Also, there really isn't much stomping at 10NL, just a whole lot of limping. It's actually annoying, the amount of time I lose clicking the fold button in the BB when I have a terrible hand, but I get a pop-up asking me if I'm sure I don't want to just check. When I have all twelve screens popping up at once and that happens, it's frustrating.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Fri Apr 01, 2011 at 10:52 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 02, 2011, 01:19 AM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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You said you flat in position with 44+, thought you meant limp or call a raise. Also, part of the reason it is good to raise with the small pocket pair is so you don't have to fold postflop every time you miss your set. The raise sets you up for the occasional c-bet for value or bluff depending on the board texture. A different(I think preferable) solution to your table image problem than simply not playing small pairs out of position.

I don't understand how you manage to play 12+ tables stacked. That would confuse the hell out of me.

Last edited by RockerguyAA; Sat Apr 02, 2011 at 01:21 AM..
 
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Sat Apr 02, 2011, 01:40 AM
(#14)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
If I tile my tables, my attention is spread too thin, because I'm trying to jump between tables and not focusing on one at a time. Somehow, I just end up missing a lot of important detail when I tile them, and I occasionally miss when it's my turn to act, too. When all I'm doing is looking at one table, the exact table image (who's sitting there, and which seats they're in) reminds me of how I was thinking of my hand earlier, and what reads I have on the people sitting there. I remember how the betting action has gone, so I can draw conclusions about people from what I know they've done. I don't retain nearly as much of the info as I do when I'm only at one table, but I can function at a very minimal standard, which can be good enough if the table is soft.
 
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Sat Apr 02, 2011, 07:28 AM
(#15)
DEMONTIS7's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
If I tile my tables, my attention is spread too thin, because I'm trying to jump between tables and not focusing on one at a time. Somehow, I just end up missing a lot of important detail when I tile them, and I occasionally miss when it's my turn to act, too. When all I'm doing is looking at one table, the exact table image (who's sitting there, and which seats they're in) reminds me of how I was thinking of my hand earlier, and what reads I have on the people sitting there. I remember how the betting action has gone, so I can draw conclusions about people from what I know they've done. I don't retain nearly as much of the info as I do when I'm only at one table, but I can function at a very minimal standard, which can be good enough if the table is soft.
This is exactly the senerio I pictured in my previous post,,,a table pops up, you look at your holdings, look at your position, look see what's been bet before you, make a quick decision, and meanwhile there are 4 more tables beeping at you that demand your attention,,,,you have to make basic decisions very quickly, and avoid getting bogged down in anything complicated.

Table Image,,,I do not have the time to wonder how others percieve me,,,,I coundn't care less,,,I'm there, I do my business and I'm gone to the next table,,,,,,But I do know that if they are doing their homework on me, they know that i'm playing 12-15 tables, and they know that I have the advantage of playing only the best holdings, that when I come in, I'm coming with something good and if I don't hit i'm folding, if i do hit the flop they are in for a ride,,,Your classic TAG,,,,,So if that is my table image, I'll take it in a heartbeat.
But most of the players at the table won't do their homework and when they get in a hand with you they don't realize that they are up against the best.....they don't really care.

Just stick to the criteria you've outlined for your play during this session, and stick to it,,,KISS
You'll be folding alot, and the hands that fall into your range by position you play them by a consistant set of predetermined actions:

I find myself raising in position w/ KK, standard 2, 2.5, or 3x raise depending on EP, MP, LP and moving to the next table that's qued up (I don't have to spend time analysing it, just do it),,,,,next 33 LP call,,,,next AK EP raise ,,,,next ,,,,ect over and over again. By rote,,,,,,,,,,,,What happened to that KK hand back there,,,oh it took care of itself,,,,next the table w/ the 33 LP see the flop, quick no set no bet,,,,next,,,and on and on,,,standard bets for standard predetermined hands that move very quickly cuz you still got 4 tables beepin at you...move, move, move,,,,.

lol,,,I been there done that,,as i'm sure many ot you have also,,,,
I've tiled them and you got lights blinking at you from everywhere,,,you're sure gonna miss something
I stack em,,,,so I only deal with one at a time,,,I personally can see alot when the table is isolated
So I still maintain that the KISS principle holds alot of value in these situations,,,and if it's too much to handle and you feel like you're losing control,,,cut back on the tables one at a time until you get in your comfort zone,,,,

The biggest problem is having to go to the bathroom,,,,Now I keep an empty milk jug next to my chair,,,,,that's funny

Just my opinion >Dem

Last edited by DEMONTIS7; Sat Apr 02, 2011 at 08:09 AM..
 
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Sat Apr 02, 2011, 11:17 AM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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Panicky, I guess it comes down to personal preference when deciding to stack or tile tables. I can tell you from experience though, it is possible for you to tile that many tables and be able to fully concentrate. What you have to do is start where you are 100% comfortable. 1, 2, 4, 6 tables wherever that is. Then add 1-2 more tables and play like that for a week or two. Your brain will adjust to it and it will soon become just as comfortable. Once you feel 100% comfortable, the process can be repeated.

When I jumped from 9 tables to 12 at the 2NL tables over a week ago, I felt like it was going insanely fast and my concentration was too split up. Now, I can concentrate better on a single hand when I need to, and things don't feel as frantic. It is almost like time slows down, or maybe my brain has speed up? At first I was like clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick!!!, but now it doesn't feel like that.

One important thing I want to point out about my experience though. I feel comfortable 12 tabling 2NL now, but not 5NL+. I feel like my concentration is still spread to thin for 5NL+ since the game is a bit more complex than 2NL.
 
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Fri Nov 18, 2011, 08:10 PM
(#17)
Ravzar's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 9
I know you explained it but I still don't see the point in not playing any pocket pair. I don't think pocket 4s are of significantly higher value than pocket 2s (pokerstove puts it at less than 1% equity difference against a range of 20%). You are just set mining. I don't see why you would want to set mine less if set mining is profitable overall.

I think your play is extremely exploitable though. I go onto tables full of people doing exactly what you're doing and cards start to not matter so much. If you play only the best hands and the flop comes say 3h, 4s 8d I will bet into you with anything because I know you will fold unless you have a set or an overpair. If I think you will play fit and fold all the time then I will start getting involved in pots with you regardless of my cards. I will call a raise out of position with seven deuce if it means I can play a pot with you just because I know you will fold to a reraise on a blank board outside your range! You don't have the time to think about what you're doing so I can do that and make it profitable!

Last edited by Ravzar; Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:13 PM..
 
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Fri Nov 18, 2011, 11:10 PM
(#18)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Interesting first post Ravzar.
Welcome to the forum.
This is a bit of an old thread.

There's definitely some strategy to playing against the too nitty, especially one who's multi-tabling.

Let us know if you have any questions and carry on.

Last edited by !!!111Dan; Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 11:15 PM..
 
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Fri Nov 18, 2011, 11:56 PM
(#19)
Ravzar's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 9
Ah I didn't notice the dates. I saw this on the first page and just assumed it was recent. I posted since I saw the OPs name in a training vid one time (and yes, he was folding a lot:P).
 

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