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Putting a player on Quads

 
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Putting a player on Quads - Sun Apr 03, 2011, 03:34 PM
(#1)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
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The question is simple - can you ever put a player on quads?

My lack of text underlines how distraught I am. I thought about all the different things I could write here, but have decided to give just one more line.

I put in so much effort and time to try and learn and be successful at this, and it seems to be all for nothing - basically because I appear to be very bad at Poker.



If anyone has any idea what I could have done differently, then please feel free to comment.

EDIT : in fact, I'll say I should have given this up once the second 5 hit. This is my point - I can't apply the knowledge I gain.

Last edited by tomrankin51; Sun Apr 03, 2011 at 03:36 PM..
 
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Sun Apr 03, 2011, 03:50 PM
(#2)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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Extremely bad raise/call on the river. The only possible hand that you beat and he can call is a lower flush. When he was min-betting the whole way it usually means one of two things: his hand is very strong or it is very weak. If it is very strong you lose more chips raising and if he is very weak you gain nothing by raising because he will fold. Chasing a flush when the board is paired is always risky, and once the board had 2 pairs your draw has very little value. When he pushed on the river you should have folded instantly. You didn't have a lot of chips invested, just let it go.

Also, you could try playing a tighter range of starting hands in early and middle position. The more premium the hand and the better the position, the more likely you are to win. Obvious I know...

Last edited by RockerguyAA; Sun Apr 03, 2011 at 03:53 PM..
 
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Sun Apr 03, 2011, 04:19 PM
(#3)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Call every street. When he ships the river he's polarized between air, jacks full, quad jacks and quad 5s. Your flush is as good as a pair of aces here I think. If you think he has air more than about 40% of the time you should call. But with blinds at just 15/30 there's no reason to stack off here. Just fold and say dang, at least I lost only 60 more than the minimum.
 
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Sun Apr 03, 2011, 04:24 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,798
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way too early in the tourney to even be involved in a pot with ace/rag suited.
 
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Sun Apr 03, 2011, 04:41 PM
(#5)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockerguyAA View Post
You could try playing a tighter range of starting hands in early and middle position. The more premium the hand and the better the position, the more likely you are to win. Obvious I know...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
way too early in the tourney to even be involved in a pot with ace/rag suited.
The problem with hand analysis is that it is very tightly focussed on two hole cards, and then a betting pattern with the rest of the board. It takes nothing like the feel of the table, or the other players into account. So with that in mind, A6 isn't a hand I play as one of my stock starting hands. Im very tight. I felt it was worth a punt with given the way everyone else at the table had been up to then.

Either way, it appears that there is too much I do wrong that no amount of learning is fixing. I read up constantly at every chance I get, try to use the knowledge, only to be knocked out within 20 mins and 2 hands played. I keep posting hands up, to be told "you played badly". Breaks away do nothing, being super-tight does nothing, listening to classical f**king music to balance me does nothing.

Sorry for the vent(s), but quite honestly Im wondering whether Im chasing a lost cause.
 
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Sun Apr 03, 2011, 05:14 PM
(#6)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Limping behind is a sure way to leak chips. Unless you are in late positition with multiple limpers ahead don't limp. One piece of advice I heard very early in my poker journey was "Don't call if you can't raise!" Remember when you raise you have two ways to win. One, everyone folds and two, you make your hand. When limping you have to almost always have to make your hand to win.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 01:54 AM
(#7)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
It really depends on your table. If you have a bunch of passive players (loose or tight) there is absolutely nothing wrong with limping A6 suited for 30 chips from your 1530 chip stack. This early in the tournament you are not trying to steal blinds, but to win nice pots. You win nice pots postflop with speculative hands like suited aces, suited connectors, pocket pairs, etc. You invest a very small portion of your stack to see a cheap flop and decide from there. You played it well until the river.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 10:38 AM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
tom, to answer your question, quads are so rare to make that no, I never put someone on quads (to be more precise, I will include quads in someone's range but with a pair on the board there is only one card combo of quads, so it is a very small part of their over all range).

Quads aren't the issue here though, any J or 5 beats you. This hand should be a call on the river only as it's hard to see how a worse hand calls your raise on a double paired board. Maybe a worse flush calls I guess. But he min bets, you raise to 3x the size of his bet, and he responds by overbet shoving his stack. What can he possible have? Any time something unexpected happens, stop and ask yourself what it means. In this case it means he probably as a jack.

There's 2 primary things you must do to become good at this game:

1) Learn and develop new strategies and skill sets

2) Identify and plug leaks.

From the basis if this post, it seems you feel like #1 is covered. But you are not doing the second one, and this is why you continue to struggle. You may think you're doing it, but you're not, as your question to start this thread isn't the relevant question at all to the problem you had in this hand.

Limping in with this hand was a leak, you should'n't even be playing A-rag in this spot. But of more immediate concern was the river play... start by really reflecting on what went wrong there, which it appears to me was a failure to range your opponent and also to interpret what his unusual river action meant.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 01:42 PM
(#9)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
BronzeStar
Actually, I know my problem - it's that I can't apply anything I've learned correctly, and then after the fact I can analyse but it takes me a few 're-writes' to get to the correct result. For example, at the time I thought "Should I really be able to put this player on Quads?" About 10 minutes or so later, I looked again and knew not to play the A6, not to call the river, etc etc etc shaking my head that I could play in a way that I know I shouldn't.

But yes, plugging leaks etc is a problem and the main one to plug is to not actually do the things I know are successful *rollseyes*
 

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