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playing flopped trips on dangerous board

 
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playing flopped trips on dangerous board - Mon Apr 04, 2011, 05:23 AM
(#1)
Magunga_Mike's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 37
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this hand got tricky on the turn. I felt i played it ok to start as i limped in late position to try and get lucky and sneak a set.










when i hit my set on the flop i didnt have any solid info on the players involved.

after a lead out bet and call on the flop with 2 clubs, my thinking here was to bet a little over pot here to charge for any draw or to just win it right there.

with the Ac on the turn this was a little scary especially after i got reraised. my thinking here was that he had hit an ace or possibly 2pr maybe since he called the pot bet earlier and now reraised.

Should i have reraised again here Instead of just calling the reraise? or was that in fact the best play for the board?
I was worried about the flush which definetely was possible but i didnt want to lay this one down for some reason. i guess because i just didnt think he had it yet.

the river came a cuss card for me as you can see. i got myself into a sticky situation and wasnt sure what to do depending on the size of his bet. (was relieved to see that he checked so i did the same)

I know i had a flush but with the three it wouldve made for a very tough call. Not sure what size bet would be good to call here if he had followed through.

So, im thinking i played this bad and got lucky it held. Wouldnt checking the scare cards have shown weakness and i possibly wouldve lost this to a bluff/semi-bluff?

Last edited by Magunga_Mike; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 05:27 AM..
 
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?? - Mon Apr 04, 2011, 05:54 AM
(#2)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
am fairly certain you have to raise pocket 3 - with the button- and get some of the dead $$ out preflop- and when villain checks the river-- its value bet time-- gl- monk...
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 05:58 AM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magunga_Mike View Post
with the Ac on the turn this was a little scary especially after i got reraised. my thinking here was that he had hit an ace or possibly 2pr maybe since he called the pot bet earlier and now reraised.

... ... ...

So, im thinking i played this bad and got lucky it held. Wouldnt checking the scare cards have shown weakness and i possibly wouldve lost this to a bluff/semi-bluff?
First off, I like the preflop and flop actions. I like limping preflop, because raising would probably result in you getting called and outflopped by at least one opponent (these guys look pretty passive, so it wouldn't shock me too see them all call). On the flop though, you want players to call you. Maybe not the whole table, but flush draws calling you wouldn't necessarily be bad, since flush draws will only complete about 30% of the time. After you flop a set, it's not that bad if one of these guys stations you. But I like the bet because your opponents just don't look like the folding kind, so charge them all you can.

I prefer checking back the turn, because if your opponent called your flop bet, they might have had a flush draw. And if they did, they just hit it. If they have a flush, you can't bet for value anymore, since you're the one now drawing to only 20% of the deck. And you're not getting them off their hand, so your money's not coming back. They won't always have the flush, but I tend to check here, then call a river bet, unless it reads a lot like a value bet. I'd say anything up to 70% of the pot would be fine to call on the river, because your opponents are going to bluff at you so often because you checked the turn, and because the fourth club is a pretty convenient bluffing card.

Those are my impressions. Don't take them as expert advice. Some smarter peeps than me will probably drop by in a few hours and add their thoughts. This is just how I tend to play. Hopefully my reasoning makes sense.

Btw, are you Batgirl?
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 05:59 AM
(#4)
Magunga_Mike's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyskunk4 View Post
am fairly certain you have to raise pocket 3 - with the button- and get some of the dead $$ out preflop- and when villain checks the river-- its value bet time-- gl- monk...

so would this have been the right preflop play in a tournament?

Or are you saying that since cash game and LATE position i should be raising all pairs no matter how big?
 
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?? - Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:02 AM
(#5)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
with pocket 3- yes on the button-- you must isolate- most times your gonna be out flopped, by even one opponent, 2 or 3 or 4-- might as well fold- as then a set even isnt huge---
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:05 AM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Fact is, you either shoulda bet HARDER to the turn (to make it easier for you to fold if RR'ed), or checked in my opinion. Consider...

You flop the set on a draw heavy board. You bet the flop hard, and 1 player comes along. Nuttin; wrong with that at all...price the draws out and win right there isn't necessarily terrible thinking, but you definately do NOT want them drawing uber cheap.

The turn tho puts up your "nightmare". The opponent checks, so you bet, but only bet 20c into the 98c pot...why?

With 1 to come, you are pricing in a club draw now (an Ac needs only about 4 to 1 to draw to his 20% nut chance), by laying right around 6 to 1 for a call.

Your set is either ahead, or behind but drawing to the boat. Why bet such a small amount as to give someone on something like Kc8d the right price to draw at you: either bet around half to 2/3rds pot behind his check, or check to see if you boat on the riv...

(Personally, I prefer the check to pot control)

If you suspect this opponent of attempting a "steal" via the check/raise, then why not bet more like 1/2 to 2/3rds to make it less likely he can re-pop (due to your potential flush now)?

If you made the 20c bet to INDUCE a bluff, why dont you re-pop on the full house draw semi-bluff?

So...

I don;t see anything really bad here about your play, except for your turn play.

I'm essentially agreeing with what Panicky Poker put in, but looking at the reads you must have to make your 20c turn bet "right"...if you have those reads, you need to re-pop his 70c. You didn;t, so that 20c just looks a bit "scared".

Last edited by JDean; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 06:08 AM..
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:11 AM
(#7)
Magunga_Mike's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Fact is, you either shoulda bet HARDER to the turn (to make it easier for you to fold if RR'ed), or checked in my opinion. Consider...

You flop the set on a draw heavy board. You bet the flop hard, and 1 player comes along. Nuttin; wrong with that at all...price the draws out and win right there isn't necessarily terrible thinking, but you definately do NOT want them drawing uber cheap.

The turn tho puts up your "nightmare". The opponent checks, so you bet, but only bet 20c into the 98c pot...why?

With 1 to come, you are pricing in a club draw now (an Ac needs only about 4 to 1 to draw to his 20% nut chance), by laying right around 6 to 1 for a call.

Your set is either ahead, or behind but drawing to the boat. Why bet such a small amount as to give someone on something like Kc8d the right price to draw at you: either bet around half to 2/3rds pot behind his check, or check to see if you boat on the riv...

If you suspect this opponent to attempt a "steal" via the check/raise, then why not bet more like 1/2 to 2/3rds to make it less likely he can re-pop (due to your potential flush now)?

If you made the 20c bet to INDUCE a bluff, why dont you re-pop on the full house draw semi-bluff?

So...

I don;t see anything really bad here about your play, except for your turn play.
This is what i was thinking after i did it. I was also hoping that my bet would look like i hit it and i guess was sort of "falsely" protection betting. i wasnt purposly trying to induce a bluff. a better player wouldve taken this pot from me or gotten alot of my chips for sure.

I get your point. i shouldve played that better on the turn. Its situations like this that usually get me into trouble. i got very lucky this time indeed.


and to the other poster: No, im not Batgirl...LOL. **(p.s. its catwoman)
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:23 AM
(#8)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I agree that the 20c bet looks scared. I was actually wondering why the guy check-raised you, but seeing JDean point out the bet size, I'm thinking the villain thought you were afraid of the flush (which you were), and thought he could get you off your hand. Most of the time, I assume he'd be right. You just got stubborn because you had better than a one pair hand. I don't like the idea of reraising the check-raise, simply because if the check-raise was a bluff, it's never calling, and if the check-raise was a flush trying to build the pot or price you out of rivering a better hand, then you're basically giving away free money. I prefer the checkback approach, because regardless of whether you repop the turn or call a river bet, you're putting money in. Calling the river bet is the only move that has any positive expected value, because your opponent might be betting the river with nothing. They're never calling your 4bet on the turn with nothing.

And although I think monk brings up a good point about thinning the field preflop, I prefer limping preflop in this spot simply because the pot has been open limped, which means you're rarely winning more here than what's in the pot to begin with, and that's only if the villains all fold. They don't look like they will, because micro-stakes limpers are usually loose/passive calling stations, and when the flop comes, most of the time with three overcards to your threes, what are you going to do? If anyone made bottom pair, you're behind, and you're almost always bluffing after the flop. Threes don't play all that well in a multi-way pot.

I knew the avatar girl looked different.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:40 AM
(#9)
Magunga_Mike's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I agree that the 20c bet looks scared. I was actually wondering why the guy check-raised you, but seeing JDean point out the bet size, I'm thinking the villain thought you were afraid of the flush (which you were), and thought he could get you off your hand. Most of the time, I assume he'd be right. You just got stubborn because you had better than a one pair hand. I don't like the idea of reraising the check-raise, simply because if the check-raise was a bluff, it's never calling, and if the check-raise was a flush trying to build the pot or price you out of rivering a better hand, then you're basically giving away free money. I prefer the checkback approach, because regardless of whether you repop the turn or call a river bet, you're putting money in. Calling the river bet is the only move that has any positive expected value, because your opponent might be betting the river with nothing. They're never calling your 4bet on the turn with nothing.

And although I think monk brings up a good point about thinning the field preflop, I prefer limping preflop in this spot simply because the pot has been open limped, which means you're rarely winning more here than what's in the pot to begin with, and that's only if the villains all fold. They don't look like they will, because micro-stakes limpers are usually loose/passive calling stations, and when the flop comes, most of the time with three overcards to your threes, what are you going to do? If anyone made bottom pair, you're behind, and you're almost always bluffing after the flop. Threes don't play all that well in a multi-way pot.

I knew the avatar girl looked different.
thats kind of what my thinking was for the 3's. was thinking in a tourney state of mind i guess. flop and pop.

As far as the "weak" turn bet. i guess i shouldve bet more. but i feel i had to bet there instead of check. Checking wouldve induced a bet from the other player as im sure he wouldve sensed weakness from my check. so thats why i was thinking to fire small as protection bet...which obviously didnt work since he reraised.... and then i guess your right...i was stubborn in thinking or hoping rather...he had 1 or 2 pair.

These are the types of hands i look forward to posting as these are my trouble hands to where i can get confused on what the right play wold be. i understand that alot will depend on each opponent in each situation like this how it will turn out. If i had more info on this guy maybe i play differently.

Appreciate everyones feedback here.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:46 AM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Someone quick, click the 'Change status to "evaluated"' button before Dave gets here.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 07:43 AM
(#11)
DEMONTIS7's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyskunk4 View Post
with pocket 3- yes on the button-- you must isolate- most times your gonna be out flopped, by even one opponent, 2 or 3 or 4-- might as well fold- as then a set even isnt huge---
I totally diagree imo, and here's why:

1.PREFLOP - 33 is only what it is,,,a stinkin pair of threes. if you want to go set mining w/ em, that's fine but do it as cheap as you can. You don't want to drive other player out of the hand, you want to invite more players in a multiway pot.,,,,Calling preflop on the button is the correct.

2 FLOP - You hit you're set and you're looking for more, like a full house or quads, Two clubs out there is a concern, but you'll see that quite often. Bluff boy bets so small, I don't even know why he bothered to bet at all, and your pot sized bet was appropriate. You communicate to him that you hit the flop in some way, or are representing a big draw.Those other 2 players read it like that and get out of the way Let's see what he says back. I guarentee he will not put you on a set. So he'll see the flush draw, and go to the most obvious conclusion that you are on a flush draw.
You're post flop bet was sized right for value, you take control of pot size,and you isolate, you have position - puts you in the cat birds seat.

3. TURN - Scary - So he probably put you on a flush draw already,,,,continue that line,,,,semi-bluff 2/3 pot bet here would have looked real to him....you represent a story line here, and must stick to it....BUT,,,you don't. He sees your weak, little turn bet ( which does not represent your line ) and he says to himself "He's bluffing",,,,you just gave him a shot at a check-raise, now the tables are turned. He now represents the flush,,,,He now takes contol of the pot size,,,And I'd be mighty tempted to fold. But you call. You seriously think that you're hand is second best, you're taking a shot now, and now you're gonna gamble.

4. RIVER - a really scarey card for you,,,,check it down,,,You might very well have the 2nd best hand.

You were in control until that smallish turn bet,,,,that turned the tables,,,,But he didn't take advantage of it, he actually could have won that pot w/ a strong bet on the river.

It was'nt your luck, or your skill that won you that pot,,,,it was your opponents lack of both luck and skill that put the pot in your pocket

>Dem

Last edited by DEMONTIS7; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 07:57 AM..
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 09:12 AM
(#12)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I don't get betting the turn. If you bet the turn, are you doing it because you think the villain won't have clubs often enough to call and will just fold? If that's the idea, then you're turning the better hand into a bluff. That doesn't make sense.

If you think that your opponent is going to flat call you with weaker hands than bottom set, then the turn bet makes some sense. But in that case, you're putting the villain on a somewhat narrow range, even for a calling station. Why would anyone, even with two pair, call a 3bet on the flop, and then a bet on the turn when the board has gotten worse for their hand? I think betting the turn only accomplishes getting some opponents to check-raise with a club draw, but since that's putting them on a very narrow range as well (top two pair with one club?), it doesn't make sense to me. I guess if they actually have top two, they might not fold... But I don't think top two pair would bet so small on the flop. For so many reasons, I think top two is unlikely.

Just about the only hands that are continuing against that line are better hands, imo. I think checking back the turn is the optimal line. In actuality, you want the villain to bluff the river, because if we're putting them on top two pair, we have that beat. Moreover, I really don't think top two pair is going to be their hand a lot of the time. One pair or a club draw makes the most sense to me. Betting the turn will get the one pair to fold = bad for us. Betting the turn when the villain had a club draw will get our money in the villain's stack whoopsie-quick because they turned a flush.

Check the turn! Call the river. ...Am I right?

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 09:14 AM..
 
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?? - Mon Apr 04, 2011, 10:26 AM
(#13)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEMONTIS7 View Post
I totally diagree imo, and here's why:

1.PREFLOP - 33 is only what it is,,,a stinkin pair of threes. if you want to go set mining w/ em, that's fine but do it as cheap as you can. You don't want to drive other player out of the hand, you want to invite more players in a multiway pot.,,,,Calling preflop on the button is the correct.

2 FLOP - You hit you're set and you're looking for more, like a full house or quads, Two clubs out there is a concern, but you'll see that quite often. Bluff boy bets so small, I don't even know why he bothered to bet at all, and your pot sized bet was appropriate. You communicate to him that you hit the flop in some way, or are representing a big draw.Those other 2 players read it like that and get out of the way Let's see what he says back. I guarentee he will not put you on a set. So he'll see the flush draw, and go to the most obvious conclusion that you are on a flush draw.
You're post flop bet was sized right for value, you take control of pot size,and you isolate, you have position - puts you in the cat birds seat.

3. TURN - Scary - So he probably put you on a flush draw already,,,,continue that line,,,,semi-bluff 2/3 pot bet here would have looked real to him....you represent a story line here, and must stick to it....BUT,,,you don't. He sees your weak, little turn bet ( which does not represent your line ) and he says to himself "He's bluffing",,,,you just gave him a shot at a check-raise, now the tables are turned. He now represents the flush,,,,He now takes contol of the pot size,,,And I'd be mighty tempted to fold. But you call. You seriously think that you're hand is second best, you're taking a shot now, and now you're gonna gamble.

4. RIVER - a really scarey card for you,,,,check it down,,,You might very well have the 2nd best hand.

You were in control until that smallish turn bet,,,,that turned the tables,,,,But he didn't take advantage of it, he actually could have won that pot w/ a strong bet on the river.

It was'nt your luck, or your skill that won you that pot,,,,it was your opponents lack of both luck and skill that put the pot in your pocket

>Dem
I get what you are sayin demon- my intention here is to point out that playing cards is 1 thing-- and playing poker is an entirely different thing- not using position to take control of a hand - is imho- a mistake - dead $ is dead money !! your holdings dont matter- till shodown--- gl -monk..
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 10:42 AM
(#14)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I don't get betting the turn. If you bet the turn, are you doing it because you think the villain won't have clubs often enough to call and will just fold? If that's the idea, then you're turning the better hand into a bluff. That doesn't make sense.

If you think that your opponent is going to flat call you with weaker hands than bottom set, then the turn bet makes some sense. But in that case, you're putting the villain on a somewhat narrow range, even for a calling station. Why would anyone, even with two pair, call a 3bet on the flop, and then a bet on the turn when the board has gotten worse for their hand? I think betting the turn only accomplishes getting some opponents to check-raise with a club draw, but since that's putting them on a very narrow range as well (top two pair with one club?), it doesn't make sense to me. I guess if they actually have top two, they might not fold... But I don't think top two pair would bet so small on the flop. For so many reasons, I think top two is unlikely.

Just about the only hands that are continuing against that line are better hands, imo. I think checking back the turn is the optimal line. In actuality, you want the villain to bluff the river, because if we're putting them on top two pair, we have that beat. Moreover, I really don't think top two pair is going to be their hand a lot of the time. One pair or a club draw makes the most sense to me. Betting the turn will get the one pair to fold = bad for us. Betting the turn when the villain had a club draw will get our money in the villain's stack whoopsie-quick because they turned a flush.

Check the turn! Call the river. ...Am I right?
Yer betting the turn because often enough he will have 1 club, and be willing to pay a bad price to draw. That is why 1/2 to 2/3rds turn bet is good: it DENIES the right price, but to a BAD player looks "cheap" enough to continue the draw.

Also, you are betting the turn because 2 pr and top/top type hands may pay a bet now, but may NOT if an additional scare card comes.

Finally, 1/2 to 2/3rds on the turn effectively "defines" your hand, and allows you to check behind if he flats.

Betting 20c on the turn does none of that.

Not betting at all on the turns gives infinate drawing odds to a better club, as well as failing to get a lesser hand to put any chips in.

If you are against a nit, or even someone with a solid awareness of pot odds, then yes, a turn CHECK to pot control may not be out of line. This guy min bets, then calls a pot size bet, on 2nd pair/2nd kick with no draws on a draw heavy board oop. I doubt seriosly we can mak a case that the villain here is aware of pot odds.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 10:55 AM
(#15)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Bad opponents would call a 1/2 pot bet with a flush draw, even a paired one, I think. It takes a terrible opponent to do it with just second pair. I don't know what this guy was thinking, but given his behaviour, perhaps the best line was to bet less than half pot. It induced a pretty nice bluff raise.

Against a regular opponent, I think checking then calling would be best. I might be wrong about that, for the reasons mentioned above. If we had a read on the guy though, then perhaps the bet is good, but I think against a decent player, it puts us in an ugly spot if the guy decides to check-raise semi-bluff.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 11:41 AM
(#16)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,487
(Head Trainer)
I agree with Panicky on checking back the turn. Not because I'm paranoid that he's got a flush, although that possibility is part of it:

1) villains line on the flop is certainly consistant with a flush draw, which is now beating us.

2) When villain does NOT have a flush, the Ac is about the scariest card in the deck for him, which makes it much harder for us to get value from worse hands.

Ironically the small turn bet induces the villain to turn his hand into a bluff and rep the flush with a check-raise. A bigger bet just folds out a hand that is drawing dead.

If we check back the turn it's true we're giving a free card to a singleton club, but that draw will miss more ofthen than not and those hands may well bluff the river after we've shown "weakness" and acted like the Ac scared us too.

Usually we should continue betting on the turn with a set, but this situation is a little different in that if the Ac didn't improve villain to a flush, it's very likely to scare away our action when we fire another big barrel.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 03:00 PM
(#17)
Magunga_Mike's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 37
BronzeStar
So we know where the mistake was no matter what decision/action figures to be best...the turn.

Which decision is best i guess depends also on the opponent? In this case i hadnt seen that much from this guy. But a more loose-aggressive player wouldve possibly continued betting on the river.

I just figured by checking the turn i would show weakness.... which i obviously did anyways with my low bet. So i would figure i shouldve bet 2/3 of pot and that wouldve been good to get him out as another club rolled in this case further putting another possible tough decision on myself.

im hoping to get a similar hand soon enough and see where that goes.
 

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