Home / Community / Forum / Support Area / Poker News /

Deposit Bonuses

Old
Default
Deposit Bonuses - Mon Apr 04, 2011, 05:38 AM
(#1)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
BronzeStar
Hello everyone

In an idle moment uploading my iPhoto stuff to my new Flickr Pro account, I got reading the PokerStars deposit bonus deeley.

I might be being really thick, but it seems you have to spend way much more than even the 100% bonus to actually get it

Please correct me if I'm wrong, obviously, but say for instance I put in $100. To get the extra $100 I would have to earn x17 the bonus amount in 6 months, only getting it in $10 increments per 170 VPP. That means I have to earn 1700 VPP?!? Seeing as the $1.20 SNGs only give out 1.10 VPP, it means that I would need to play 1545 dollar SNGs, and spend nearly $1800 for the privilege! Even the $3.40 SNGs (giving 2.20 VPP) mean playing 775 approx, spending $2600!

Now this assumes that you would lose your buy-in every time but even taking a few wins into account, this seems really wrong in my head. I would appreciate someone explaining it to me, maybe from someones thats actually took advantage of it!

Thanks
Tom
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:04 AM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Basically, if you're a winning player, then you're making 100% of the bonus. If you're a losing player (like most are), then you're right. You're spending a lot more money to get money back that still leaves you with a loss.

I think the deposit bonuses are just bait to lure the fish in. People think, "Yay! Free money!" But in actuality, they do have to spend a massive amount to unlock it, and they need a pretty breakeven ROI to profit at all. People don't do the math, they sign up for the bonus, they end up having a -ROI, and they basically end up donating to the PokerStars community. I imagine that most people don't even manage to unlock their full deposit bonuses in time, because they bust too quickly or just don't rack up the VPP's fast enough. It's clever.
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:21 AM
(#3)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
BronzeStar
I've just tried to do some really quick maths around it, and I figure that if you deposit $100, then min cash every single one of those 1545 SNGs, then you stand to win $927, plus bankroll and bonus and that equals $1127. I like those odds lol.

Now, I'm not sure on the Avg Cash on SNGs tbh (too...many...acronyms...) but lets say it's 10%. Now, you wouldn't even treble your bankroll ($292.70). Cruddy.

I think the conclusion is "boooooooo, deposit bonus. Booooooooo."
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:31 AM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
The only way redeeming the bonus would actually lose you money is if you end up having a very negative ROI. You can have a marginally negative ROI and actually break even or profit from the deposit bonuses. If you're a winning player at all, then it's free money. I like free money, so I took full advantage of the $150 Home Games bonus. Free $37.50, just for racking up some VPP's. And now I'm a Silver Star. Sure, I have to spend loads of money, but if you don't lose, then you don't lose.
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 04, 2011, 08:06 AM
(#5)
DEMONTIS7's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 209
BronzeStar
In the old days, at a differint site,,your deposit bonus was released in total when you raked so many hands,,,for $100 deposit bonus, you had to have like 750 raked hands to release the bonus. It probably works out the same in the long run for these sites. They just want to get you into the action, and more than not you will lose your initial deposit, and they never have to pay out the bonus, plus they get all the rake. Pretty good marketing scheme. I always cleared my bonus in about 24 hours. But then that's just me.

>Dem
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 04, 2011, 10:19 AM
(#6)
EA2USN's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 176
BronzeStar
I Think it is crucial to take full advantage of all offered deposit and reload bonuses. Playing the $1.20 sit n go's you need to have an ROI greater than.

.5.5 vpp = 1.1 vpp per sit n go
1700 vpp / 1.1 vpp = 1546 sit n go's
1546 x 1.20 = $1855.20 in wagers

so if you loose $100 in the tourneys you would receive the $100 bonus and break even.

ROI=-100/1855.20 = -5.39%

So if your ROI is greater than -5.39% you will win money

and in actuality you will also earn at least 1700 fpp(depending on you star rating) which would be good for an additional $20 worth of VIP bonus through the VIP store
$10 at 750 fpp
$10 at 1500 fpp

and also that would be 1700 fpp towards the 2500 fpp you would need to claim an aditional $25 in cash from the VIP store

So taking that into account and say you decide to play untill you earn 2500fpp assuming 1 for 1 exchange of fpp to vpp ie bronze star

you would receive VIP steller rewards of
$10 at 750 fpp
$10 at 1500 fpp
$10 at 2250 fpp

and VIP cash bonus of $25 for 2500 fpp's
for $55 in additional money

so you would profit with and ROI greater than

155/1855.20 = -8.35 ROI

Last edited by EA2USN; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 11:55 AM..
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 04, 2011, 12:06 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Yeah, these guys pretty much nailed it.

Goldstar is 3000 points so you can see where someone who plays goldstar volume would earn this bonus in about half a month's time.

The most common problems people run into that leads to complaints is:

1) micro stakes takes a long time to play the volume required due to the proportionally smaller rake/juice

2) Like Panicky said, the majority of players are not winning players, and will go broke or lose a lot clearing the bonus.

The bonus still has value though, as was pointed out if one is a break even or slightly losing player clearing bonus can turn them into a positive expectation player during that time frame. And of course if you're a winning player already it's just free money adding into your bottom line.
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 04, 2011, 01:48 PM
(#8)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
BronzeStar
ROI etc in this way is something new to me so I don't really know what -5.xx% actually means. It looks bad, but it doesnt seem to be? In real world what does a minus percentage represent? And how would you be able to calculate an expected ROI? Surely this is something you would need to do, but have no real world figures to go on?

Plus, if you deposited $100 you would more than likely play the $3.40 or $5.20 games - seems to me you would need to be more of a winning player than if you were playing only the $1.20.

What would be the best strategy to grab your bonus, or is it a case of just play as much as you can and try and cash every 1 in 10?

Last edited by tomrankin51; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 02:21 PM..
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 04, 2011, 02:59 PM
(#9)
EA2USN's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 176
BronzeStar
ROI = Return on investment
for a 1.20 sng your investment is $1.20
1st pays $4.50
2nd pays$2.70
3rd pays $1.80
everything else is -$1.2 or -$1.20/1.20 for -100% meaning you lost everything you put up.

So if you are negative 5.xx% that means you are loosing $5 on every 100 you are wagering.

General rule of thumb for sit n go is that a sit n go buy in should not be more than 5% of your bankroll. So if your bankroll is $100 you should not be playing a sit n go of more than $5.00.

I usually play around 2% - 3% of my bankroll for sit n go's

at the $3.40 sit n go's you will be getting .4*5.5=2.20vpps
so you would need to play 773 tournaments for and investment of 773*3.40= $2628.20

So to break even you would have to loose $100 or have an ROI of
ROI=-100/2628.20=-3.80%

for 5.50 games
.5*5.5 = 2.75vpps per game
619 games for an investment of $3404.5

ROI = -100/3404.50 = -2.93%


So you would have to be a better player to break even at the $3.40 games as opposed to the $1.20 games, and an even better player to break even at the $5.50 games.

In my opinion the best strategy for bonus is to multi table cash games.
but again you need to be close to a break even player to make this a positive EV situation

So if your a bad player the best option is to play alot of $1.20 sit n go's cause that has the lowest ROI for breaking even.

For cash games you would need to be a less then -1bb per 100 player at all levels

Last edited by EA2USN; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 03:07 PM..
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 04, 2011, 03:47 PM
(#10)
tomrankin51's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 242
BronzeStar
Ah ok I understand that completely. So, what would you compare that to in order to determine if it's a profitable situation? Is calculating your own ROI to compare to something that only happens after an extended period of playing cash SNGs etc, or is there a method to calculate your own 'Implied ROI'?
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com