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Advice needed

 
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Advice needed - Mon Apr 04, 2011, 01:06 PM
(#1)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
I tend to overplay AQ... my thoughts anyways.... would like thoughts on how I played this...too aggressive? too passive? like a fish etc

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 3.4 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (7 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



Button (t1480)
SB (t4190)
Hero (BB) (t2060)
UTG (t1570)
MP1 (t1400)
MP2 (t1330)
CO (t1470)

Hero's M: 68.67

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, A
5 folds, SB bets t80, Hero calls t60

Flop: (t160) 3, 5, 2 (2 players)
SB bets t120, Hero calls t120

Turn: (t400) Q (2 players)
SB bets t240, Hero calls t240

River: (t880) 7 (2 players)
SB bets t360, Hero calls t360

Total pot: t1600
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 01:16 PM
(#2)
JT_Sooooted's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,407
BronzeStar
I don't like the call on the flop. However, once the Q hits the turn. I get it in.

JT
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 01:42 PM
(#3)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
you dont like the call with the nut flush draw?
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 01:56 PM
(#4)
EA2USN's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 176
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I would of 3bet preflop just sb and bb to see if sb was just making a 4x steal attempt. Also on the flop had I just smooth called the preflop I might of considered a raise with two over-cards to the board and nut flush draw and a gutter with a four, a semi bluff raise would not be out of line. That said I would of shoved the turn once the q hit. But I tend to be more aggressive than most.

My philosophy is when in doubt take the most aggressive action.

So how did you play it
1. too aggressive? No, you never made a single aggressive action.
2 too passive? Yes, every action you made was a passive action ie call the raise or bet.
3 like a fish? Yes, I guess a fish would of played it the same way that you did.

Last edited by EA2USN; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 02:15 PM..
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 02:17 PM
(#5)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
you dont like the call with the nut flush draw?
.....the straight draw, the 2 over card draw...pretty good odds on the call..this hand may be a good check raise if you have position for it...maybe a raise here to see where you are.
The fact that his bets get smaller pot percentage wise, is a sign that he may be unsure..so I see no prob. w/ the call on turn, could maybe raise here too..river just a call is good.
A lot would depend on how I've seen this player play though..did he rapid fire the bets, are they tight,...etc....as usual. Just my .02

ps. if i'd guess, i'd put 'em on 99,,,but 77 would suck.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 02:51 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Question for the turn raisers: Is your raise for value or as a bluff?
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 03:12 PM
(#7)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I think raising on the turn is a bluff in this instance. I feel the initial raise indicates strength; it could be AA or KK but the raise on the flop also could suggest a set. I think our hero is behind all the way and the villain takes the pot.


TC
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 03:38 PM
(#8)
EA2USN's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 176
BronzeStar
raise on the flop would be a semi bluff, I think there is a good chance that the AQ is head on the flop. I think a raise on the turn which should be an all in is to try and win the pot without seeing the river. Good chance your ahead but still villain could hit two pair or a set with lower pair. And if your are behind hero would still have better than 5 - 1 to hit flush or gutter str8t 9 flush cards and 3 fours not count the flush card 4, so 12 outs on the river. And most likely 2 Q's could be considered outs also giving hero 14 outs on the river card.

Last edited by EA2USN; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 03:51 PM..
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 04:03 PM
(#9)
EA2USN's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
I think raising on the turn is a bluff in this instance. I feel the initial raise indicates strength; it could be AA or KK but the raise on the flop also could suggest a set. I think our hero is behind all the way and the villain takes the pot.


TC

It is possible that villain holds AA or KK, and that could of been determined as possible holdings had hero made a min raise preflop. That is why raising or betting out for information is important
without any aggression shown by the Hero, there really is noway to determine the strength of villains hand.
So the Hero here is relegated to calling station statues NOT a good place to be
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 04:07 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
Roomik we need some reads on the villain to give you a proper response.
I could play this hand two ways depending on how he doubled up,was it premium cards or a suckout?
Was he the aggressor or passive?Any info on that hand will help alot.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 04:18 PM
(#11)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Roomik we need some reads on the villain to give you a proper response.
I could play this hand two ways depending on how he doubled up,was it premium cards or a suckout?
Was he the aggressor or passive?Any info on that hand will help alot.
This was the 8th hand of the tourney.. previously he won with A rag that he played aggressively, and he doubled with KJ off hit the river and doubled.... I knew I had a good hand with lots of potential after the flop, but this early I am not willing to stack off with Q high... if at any point I hit my draws, preferably the flush I am stacking off on him.

My thing early is to be semi conservative untill I build a stack then open up more aggressively.. with his opening 4BB raise I didnt see a need to reraise and possibly have him shove

Also I have been on a downswing and am not overly confident of my play the last few days.. hense the calling not raising in this hand.
 
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hat - Mon Apr 04, 2011, 04:20 PM
(#12)
monkeyskunk4's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,818
roomik AQ- is called- in old school nlhe- " the walkin back to Houston ' HAND -- 4 A reason-- srry 4 the caps-- gl -- monk

Last edited by monkeyskunk4; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 04:23 PM.. Reason: ?
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 04:53 PM
(#13)
Deleted user
If this wasnt a STT I would tell you to play more aggressive with a hand in BVB warfare.
But these STTs play really straight forward and calling it down is probably my second favorite line to take.First would be fold preflop.
The fireworks happen in the first orbit usually and 1 or 2 donks get the heave hoe.
I like sitting back and establishing a image,so that when the blinds do get up I can shove atc and get that fold.

I thought this was a 27man at first and was going to give you slightly different advice but mostly the same.
Just remember that I play a TAG style that doesnt suit everyone and you have watched me enough to see that my style is like watching paint dry.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 05:27 PM
(#14)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
lol thanks cook... I play a similar game... maybe a little more laggy... definately more prone to stupid mistakes... and yeah this was a 9 man game
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:29 PM
(#15)
JT_Sooooted's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,407
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
you dont like the call with the nut flush draw?
Completely missed the flush draw. My apologizes..................watched it 3 times but not familiar with FTR convertor and just simply missed it.

JT
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:32 PM
(#16)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT_Sooooted View Post
Completely missed the flush draw. My apologizes..................watched it 3 times but not familiar with FTR convertor and just simply missed it.

JT
no prob I figured you missed something, thanks for the input
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:36 PM
(#17)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
I think you played way too passively.

I want to raise the flop for value. We get value from worse flush draws, straight draws, might be able to get some weak pairs to fold (or value from them since we actually have more equity), and we have a ton of outs. Worst case is we're against 64s for the nuts, and we're drawing solely to the flush. A4 and sets are pretty bad too, but we have a draw to a 4 to give us a few more outs.

Here are some hands we're behind (using the cardplayer.com calculator):

Against 88, we're 60% to win
Against QQ, we're 54% to win
Against KK, we're 50% to win
Against AA we're 36%
Against 55 we're 31%
Against 44 we're 45%
Against A4s we're 36% (with 7% chop)
Against 64s we're 36%
Worst case, 64 hearts: 20% to win (since we've lost 6472 of hearts as outs)



This is one of the best possible flops for our hand that doesn't have an A or a Q. Two overs, nut flush draw, inside straight draw, and we may already be best! How can you ever consider folding on the flop?

Besides it's blind vs. blind. He probably has nothing and is betting the flop most of the time.

When the turn hits, you now have even more outs against a hand like KK or AA. When he bets the turn, you can pretty much throw total air out of his range, since not a lot of players at this level will be bluffing multiple streets. At this point I think his range contains a lot of flush draws and pairs. We're ahead of all the flush draws except 64 hearts (which already has a straight).

Anyhow, since usually people only post hands like this when they've lost unexpectedly, my guess is he had 77 and rivered his set.
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 06:43 PM
(#18)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
Thanks for the reply Ori... but I never considered folding the flop.... and 77 is wrong lol dan has the right hand in his post
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 10:26 PM
(#19)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Question for the turn raisers: Is your raise for value or as a bluff?
The turn raisers didn't answer this, except for top.

If we raise on the turn, it's absolutely not a bluff, as no better hands than ours will fold

It's also not for value, as no worse hands will call (unless the guy is really bad).

Stop being scared of some guy 2 outting you. If we can get another street of value from hands like JJ or TT on the river by flatting, then flat the turn. If they're never putting another chip in unless they improve, THEN raise the turn to fold them out (their equity is really bad with a 2 outter, and it's well worth the risk to extract more on the river, but if they just won't give us more anyway unless they improve, then raising is prudent to deny them a chance to realize their equity, however poor it is).

I agree with playing the flop aggressively, this is a great semi-bluffing opportunity. Whether or not AQ high is in the lead isn't certain, but his raising range pre is probably wide so you will be winning a fair amount, you'll fold out AK and perhaps some small pairs some of the time, and you'll have excellent equity vs hands that won't fold like TT or JJ. Plus like ori said aggressive players will usually get it in on this flop with a flush draw + 2 overs, which when he holds that is a massively good scenario for you.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 01:05 AM
(#20)
ssuglia's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,393
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
The turn raisers didn't answer this, except for top.

If we raise on the turn, it's absolutely not a bluff, as no better hands than ours will fold

It's also not for value, as no worse hands will call (unless the guy is really bad).

Stop being scared of some guy 2 outting you. If we can get another street of value from hands like JJ or TT on the river by flatting, then flat the turn. If they're never putting another chip in unless they improve, THEN raise the turn to fold them out (their equity is really bad with a 2 outter, and it's well worth the risk to extract more on the river, but if they just won't give us more anyway unless they improve, then raising is prudent to deny them a chance to realize their equity, however poor it is).

I agree with playing the flop aggressively, this is a great semi-bluffing opportunity. Whether or not AQ high is in the lead isn't certain, but his raising range pre is probably wide so you will be winning a fair amount, you'll fold out AK and perhaps some small pairs some of the time, and you'll have excellent equity vs hands that won't fold like TT or JJ. Plus like ori said aggressive players will usually get it in on this flop with a flush draw + 2 overs, which when he holds that is a massively good scenario for you.
Dave, would you say that playing too passively is what ultimately leads to so many 2 outters hitting?

I mean, there are fish that will stay in the hand no matter what, but in most cases being aggressive and having a strong table image will go a long way to minimizing "bad" beats. Control what you can control, and let the cards fall as they may.

Didn't mean to stray too far off the discussion of this hand, just wanted some insight.
 

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