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Hands that cost me dearly Part 1 (of 2)

 
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Hands that cost me dearly Part 1 (of 2) - Mon Apr 04, 2011, 08:19 PM
(#1)
VareckRay's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 182
Just wondered if I should have folded given that I'd put my opponent in the small blind on A7 after the flop. Clearly I made a few mistakes in this hand, for one I didn't consider the straight draw after I'd decided she probably had TP with a decent kicker (based on what I thought knew of her range at this point) and I really didnt think she was drawing a flush.

However with what looked like 2 pot control bets to me, I pushed because on the turn, I thought maybe she does have A7 spades, still thinking she had TPTK

I'm not sure if I should be considering throwing away my over pair after her bet on the turn (if i'd not missed the straight draw completey that is)?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 0 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t1470)
SB (t1940)
BB (t1160)
UTG (t1450)
UTG+1 (t640)
VareckRay (MP1) (t1470)
MP2 (t1510)
MP3 (t2390)
CO (t1470)

VareckRay's M: 49.00

Preflop: VareckRay is MP1 with 9, 9
2 folds, VareckRay bets t60, 1 fold, MP3 calls t60, 2 folds, SB calls t50, 1 fold

Flop: (t200) 4, 7, 2 (3 players)
SB bets t120, VareckRay calls t120, 1 fold

Turn: (t440) 3 (2 players)
SB bets t220, VareckRay raises to t1290 (All-In), SB calls t1070

River: (t3020) K (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t3020

Last edited by VareckRay; Mon Apr 04, 2011 at 08:23 PM..
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 12:18 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Remember to always put your opponents on a range of hands, not a specific hand, there is no way you can narrow this down to A7. The villain has 7x, other 1 pair hands, draws, sets, probably not much air once they fire the turn. But you're still ahead of their range. That being said, I don't want to play for stacks on level 1 with just a pair of 9's unless I feel real confident I'm ahead. I think we're still ahead often enough to call the turn but I don't like raising all in so much. It's not terrible, but it's very high varience for level 1 and we'll wind up folding out a lot of the hands we're crushing and only get action from the hands that have reasonable equity against us or are crushing us. We'll probably get called by A7 (although that would be a pretty bad call) but a shove folds out a lot of 1 pair hands while stacks us off to stronger hands. I would probably call and reevaluate the river without any reads. Most players won't 3 barrel us with worse hands unless they're just reckless. Again tough without reads.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 01:02 AM
(#3)
ssuglia's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,393
BronzeStar
What about raising the flop here?

It might give a better read as to what the villian here is holding.

There's straight and flush draws on the board, as well as the possibility of the the villian set mining with a small pocket pair. He could have also held a bigger pair to your 9's, as I could see TT or JJ flatting in that spot. How he reacts to your raise could give you a better indication as to where you stand before you put your chips in the middle.

I just don't think calling him gives you enough information as to his range here.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 01:47 AM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssuglia View Post
What about raising the flop here?

It might give a better read as to what the villian here is holding.

There's straight and flush draws on the board, as well as the possibility of the the villian set mining with a small pocket pair. He could have also held a bigger pair to your 9's, as I could see TT or JJ flatting in that spot. How he reacts to your raise could give you a better indication as to where you stand before you put your chips in the middle.

I just don't think calling him gives you enough information as to his range here.
Ok, so let's follow that thought through. You raise to 350 on the flop, and the villain shoves. So now range him, where do you stand?
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 09:41 AM
(#5)
VareckRay's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 182
Hi Dave, thanks for the advice. The good thing here is when I was analyzing the pigs ear I made of this hand I at least realised most of what you are saying which is why I posted this embarrassement lol to see what others thought.


Cheers
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 09:44 AM
(#6)
VareckRay's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssuglia View Post
What about raising the flop here?

It might give a better read as to what the villian here is holding.

There's straight and flush draws on the board, as well as the possibility of the the villian set mining with a small pocket pair. He could have also held a bigger pair to your 9's, as I could see TT or JJ flatting in that spot. How he reacts to your raise could give you a better indication as to where you stand before you put your chips in the middle.

I just don't think calling him gives you enough information as to his range here.

Hi

In this instance, despite the fact that I played the hand completely wrong, I think I could safely discount a bigger pair or even, to be honest, a strong hand. I completely messed it up I know, Dave pointed out that I should range - not put my opponent on a specific hand and and I realised that was one of the many mistakes I made here when analyzing the hand afterwards.

I think my initial thoughts were accurate, I put her on A rag or worse (based on what I had seen so far) almost certainly no pocket pair, even a small one.

With a deeper stack I would probably flat called after the bet on the turn, if (and I usually do lol ) i'd noticed the straight draw. Could kick myself really as I was pushing against a player I thought was weak both generally and in the hand, trying to make some chips early on.

One other thing is that if I'd raised the flop here, I've already decided I'm going all-in with my stack size and the board as it is so the hand would have likely played out the same as I don't think my opponent was folding their draw to a raise here.

Cheers

Last edited by VareckRay; Tue Apr 05, 2011 at 09:56 AM..
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 11:00 AM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Vareck, that's a good situation to make a note on the player that they like to play Ace/rag. Can be very useful the next time you see the player. Making notes like that have saved me alot of chips the last couple months.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 01:28 PM
(#8)
ssuglia's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,393
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Ok, so let's follow that thought through. You raise to 350 on the flop, and the villain shoves. So now range him, where do you stand?
Well, I don't think he's shoving with just a 7, unless he's got a flush draw to go with it.

A straight draw is possible.

So is a flush draw, especially if he's holding 2 overs.

Everything else he's shoving with we're behind, whether it's a set or a bigger pocket pair.

I think our raise forces him to make a decision about how strong he feels his hand is, while still allowing us to get away if we feel we're beat.

Calling the flop allows him to see another card and fire off another bet, forcing us to make a decision about our hand strength.

I'm liking this exercise.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 04:01 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssuglia View Post
Well, I don't think he's shoving with just a 7, unless he's got a flush draw to go with it.

A straight draw is possible.

So is a flush draw, especially if he's holding 2 overs.

Everything else he's shoving with we're behind, whether it's a set or a bigger pocket pair.

I think our raise forces him to make a decision about how strong he feels his hand is, while still allowing us to get away if we feel we're beat.

Calling the flop allows him to see another card and fire off another bet, forcing us to make a decision about our hand strength.

I'm liking this exercise.
Really, you've never seen anyone reraise with A7 or 88 before in spots like this? Because they don't understand hand strengths, think we're on a draw and want to "protect their hand", etc.? I know you have.

Part of the problem with raising and folding to a shove is that it does NOT define "where we're at". The villain actually can have worse made hands and draws. And of course better hands are possible too. Combinatorically we're likely around 50% equity. Not good to raise/fold that. We could raise/call but then we're playing a much bigger pot than our hand really warrants at this stage on these stacks (level 1).

A third factor is that we have position. If we inflate the pot right now we remove our positional advantage. I don't see a compelling reason to do that.

If you're worried about facing a decision on the turn when you just call the flop, don't be. You have no decision on the turn really. You were wiling to raise to 350 and fold off your equity in the pot on the flop, right? Well if we flat the flop and turn bets, we've only spent 340, have gotten our hand to the river with our equity still intact, and are able to use our positional advantage and the additional information we get (turn and river cards, turn and river action) to make a more informed decision on the river.

Even if you for some reason decided you were folding to a river barrel no matter what should the villain fire all 3 streets, you would still spend 10 chips less and give yourself 2 additional chances to spike a set, as well as win the pot when they have A7 type hands or busted draws and check the river.

Just food for thought.

Last edited by TheLangolier; Tue Apr 05, 2011 at 04:04 PM..
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 08:13 PM
(#10)
ssuglia's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,393
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Really, you've never seen anyone reraise with A7 or 88 before in spots like this? Because they don't understand hand strengths, think we're on a draw and want to "protect their hand", etc.? I know you have.
In fact, I have seen this many times. Players can occasional have tunnel vision when it comes to their hand strength, or fail to give their opponents any credit for having more than a draw.

Quote:
Part of the problem with raising and folding to a shove is that it does NOT define "where we're at". The villain actually can have worse made hands and draws. And of course better hands are possible too. Combinatorically we're likely around 50% equity. Not good to raise/fold that. We could raise/call but then we're playing a much bigger pot than our hand really warrants at this stage on these stacks (level 1).

A third factor is that we have position. If we inflate the pot right now we remove our positional advantage. I don't see a compelling reason to do that.
Excellent points. I think the level 1 aspect keeps slipping my mind, and I keep feeling the need to be more aggressive here.

Quote:
If you're worried about facing a decision on the turn when you just call the flop, don't be. You have no decision on the turn really. You were wiling to raise to 350 and fold off your equity in the pot on the flop, right? Well if we flat the flop and turn bets, we've only spent 340, have gotten our hand to the river with our equity still intact, and are able to use our positional advantage and the additional information we get (turn and river cards, turn and river action) to make a more informed decision on the river.

Even if you for some reason decided you were folding to a river barrel no matter what should the villain fire all 3 streets, you would still spend 10 chips less and give yourself 2 additional chances to spike a set, as well as win the pot when they have A7 type hands or busted draws and check the river.

Just food for thought.
Hadn't looked at it that way, but it all makes sense to me.

I guess my thinking behind a possible raise on the flop was to try to take control of the hand, whether the villain folds or shuts down and checks the turn and river. Looking at it again, there's not much in his range that he would slow down with.

I'm not 100% sure I would have raised in that spot myself, just was curious as to whether or not raising was a viable option in this scenario.
 

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