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Playing For Max Value Goes Wrong

 
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Playing For Max Value Goes Wrong - Mon Apr 04, 2011, 08:32 PM
(#1)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Went for max value from the 2nd nut flush, really no reads this was only the 7th hand of the tournament, was hoping he had ck/called the flop with pair of 10's and was emboldened by making trips on the river. Was shoving the river terrible? Can I get called by worse? Would you have just called the river bet? Should I even have played KJs this early in the tournament?
 
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Mon Apr 04, 2011, 11:31 PM
(#2)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
You can be called by a couple weaker flushes and maybe some K10 or JT hands. Honestly though, A 10 and every set has boated you and raising even the nut flush isn't great. Call and muck your K high flush.

And no, this early in position with a whole bunch of donks in the pot is the perfect time to play speculative hands like suited connectors. KJ is really dangerous but as long as you play it like a suited connector here I think you should see a flop. You hit that flop hard and you should be looking to get stacks in by the river.

That river is something you really didn't want to see (as it turns all sets into boats as well as A10), and I think it's so scary I'd just call with my flush here.
 
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How did u post that replay ? - Tue Apr 05, 2011, 12:07 AM
(#3)
teecannon4's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 6
SilverStar
I think you want to get it all in with that flush from the flop on. Once the board paired u could have saved half ur stack by just calling his river bet, especially if u believed he had a ten in his hand. Keep in mind he raised utg to begin. Consider that hand as KK vs AA once the flop hits. That being said, u made some mistakes along the way if u dont believe he has the nuts on the flop. One, he raised utg so he may have a strong ace. Is it possible he has the Ace of clubs with a king queen or jack off suit ? Sure it is. So when the flop was checked to u, you only bet eighty into a one ninety pot. You gave him the correct odds to call if he held only the ace of clubs. Another mistake was to check the turn. What were u trying to do there after he called the flop bet ? You were not making him pay to draw. Be sure to consider a range of possible holdings ur opponent may hold and protect ur hand by betting enough to encourage draws to fold or pay for exercising that option.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 11:11 AM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
I really like that you saw the whole 5 cards, instead of pushing on the flop this early. That way you saw that another club didn't hit the board, so someone backs into an A high flush.
I'd have made a larger bet on the flop, probably about 3X pot... to try and get chips from them if they're a calling station, plus.. if they shove back, you can fold the hand and still have chips.

Instead of pushing on the river (you might not have the nuts due to A high flush or boat), I'd have called... if gut feeling says I'm in trouble, or maybe raised back what they bet, instead of pushing.

If you were going to push, though, I'd have probably done it after the flop and not waited.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 11:32 AM
(#5)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
My thinking in this hand was that my opponent was on a marginal made hand, something like KT, QT with Q of clubs, or 99, 88 with medium club draw. When he checks the turn I didn't think he had an Ace because I thought he would have bet there, I thought he would probably hate the Ace and it would kill my action if he had a marginal made hand. I thought he would C bet with 22, 33, or TT because of the 3 clubs on board. When he bets the river strong I really thought he made trips with QT or KT, I didn't consider the possibility of the A high flush which is bad on m part.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 11:57 AM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
We really need to bet this turn, checking behind on the turn is missing serious value. The pfr check/calls the flop, the turn is quite likely to pair him so extract value.

With the board pairing and the strong river bet, I think this is just a call. I doubt he has a ten tbh since he check/called the flop, most players are betting a ten (particularly ones that open A4 UTG). He's either got a monster or a weakish hand that isn't likely to call a shove. At least that's my guess.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 12:00 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
My thinking in this hand was that my opponent was on a marginal made hand, something like KT, QT with Q of clubs, or 99, 88 with medium club draw. When he checks the turn I didn't think he had an Ace because I thought he would have bet there, I thought he would probably hate the Ace and it would kill my action if he had a marginal made hand. I thought he would C bet with 22, 33, or TT because of the 3 clubs on board. When he bets the river strong I really thought he made trips with QT or KT, I didn't consider the possibility of the A high flush which is bad on m part.
We have totally different reads on his range. lol I don't expect him to bet an ace on the turn necessarily. Maybe, but he's got you betting for him and it's not uncommon for players to check to you now when they get there but still aren't sure about the situation. Conversely I'm not inclined to put him on a marginal made hand on the flop like Tx or 99 with a club, since he failed to bet. Check/call indicates to me he's peeling one with overs or a marginal club because your flop bet is small, or he's flopped a monster (nut flush or a set). Not that he should c/c flopped sets or flushes here, he shouldn't, but people can't help themselves.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 12:31 PM
(#8)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
We have totally different reads on his range. lol I don't expect him to bet an ace on the turn necessarily. Maybe, but he's got you betting for him and it's not uncommon for players to check to you now when they get there but still aren't sure about the situation. Conversely I'm not inclined to put him on a marginal made hand on the flop like Tx or 99 with a club, since he failed to bet. Check/call indicates to me he's peeling one with overs or a marginal club because your flop bet is small, or he's flopped a monster (nut flush or a set). Not that he should c/c flopped sets or flushes here, he shouldn't, but people can't help themselves.
This makes a lot more sense than what I was thinking in the game, after thinking about this one I agree he is definitely C betting with a pair of tens. Considering his check/call range I realize now I have to bet the turn. Usually I would continue betting but I convinced myself he was weak so I checked. I failed to make a plan for this hand, I kinda got tunnel vision and only saw my king high flush while not considering what my opponent held. I felt I made so many mistakes and played this terribly had to get advice.

So far seems everyone thinks my bet sizing was bad, how would you approach this hand in terms of bet sizing? I'm thinking now 2/3's pot on the flop and turn would have been better.
 
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Tue Apr 05, 2011, 11:41 PM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
This example is so typical of the hands I have problems with - thinking I've got the best hand so I slow-play. But really I've got the second best hand, and I'm getting rolled.

I guess my trouble spot is like learning how to minimize my losses, not being such a fish and falling in love with the hand, etc, etc ...

Like say we raised on the turn, they call again. We raise again on the river, and they shove So it seems very possible they either had the better flush all along, or else they had and hit a full house on the river. Are we supposed to fold here?

Or is it still reasonable to call in case they're shoving with , , :, and they're hoping we had a lesser pair and missed the flush draw. Is it possible they're semi-bluffing trying to represent the nut flush hoping we have a lesser hand like 22, 33 and might fold?

I feel like I'm wasting a lot of money/chips calling hands that most people would fold ...
 

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